WBB renewal Schema

Discussion in 'WoltLab Burning Board' started by ChrisTERiS, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    Mod: This topic is split off from https://theadminzone.com/threads/my-move-to-wbb-a-review.144568/

    The only bad with WBB is their Renewal schema. Let me use real examples:

    1.- Bought IPB at Feb 2012. For my own reasons, I never used it. After their 4x release I decided to renew my license to test it. The cost was around $45 for upgrading to latest version and get support for 6 months from the day of payment. They didn't asked me to pay for intermediate releases like 3.2, 3.3, 3.4

    2.- xenForo. Same story. Bought it at March 2011 but again for my own reasons, never used it. 2 months ago I renewed it for $55 and got access to latest version plus support for 12 months. They didn't asked me to pay for intermediate releases like 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4

    3.- WBB. Bought it Jan 2011 (so earlier than others) and as I can see in my history I paid $150 on July 2014 to renew it with the official plugins. Again for my own reasons never used not only the original version but not even the version for which I paid for renewal. Now trying to renew for the latest version 5 they're asking me an amount which actually is 80% of the new license price. Really why to pay eg $80 to renew a license and not add another $20 and get a new license, so total 2 license? What type of logic is this?

    Why so much? I left speechless when I read the reply in my support ticket: "You've paid for version 4.0 so you must pay to upgrade to ver 4.1 and then pay again to upgrade to ver. 5.0". And my questions is: "Why to pay for version 4.1? Have I downloaded it? No. Have I used it? No. Have I got support for it? No". So?

    Have nothing against the software. Maybe is the best. But even if I had thousands of Euros for spending, I should never pay it. Because I count it as tricky. I'm not saying that their terms are illegal. Sure they're legal. Simply they are NOT fair. By being something legal, does not means that is fair. A big prime minister in my country lost the elections because he said "If it's legal, it's fair". Later on he understood what bullsh**t he said, tried to correct it with excuses like "I was not really meaning it", but it was too late.

    Don't say how they treat old clients. When I bought the license (Jan 2011) their forums had a couple only (max 10) English threads with none replies. Normal as they focused to German market. Much later they started being interest for worldwide market. And to avoid count it as unfair post. I said "Forums" and not Support. Their support team was speaking English fluently and was very friendly. But trying to use forums was a hell.

    Edited 1:
    Forgot to write for vBulletin. Yes, some years ago they follow the same schema. That's why I never plan to renew it, but from the other side I've to admit that with just a payment to upgrade to ver. 4 I'm getting support and updates for 8 years.

    Edited 2:
    Just for fun :) Finally didn't even used xenForo for which I paid 2 months ago (and actually I bought plugins ~$200). I build my site on WHMCS, an old license that I had since 2007. I paid just for one upgrade. Can you imagine how much I had to pay for 10 years (major) updates (ver. 4, ver. 5, ver.6, ver. 7)? And not only this. Currently they don't have anymore owned licenses. They have only monthly subscriptions. But they didn't asked me to go with subscription. They accept the fact that I was one of their very first clients. This is fair client treatment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2017
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  2. dtdesign

    dtdesign Developer

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    paradoxG(r)eek

    Long story short: Yes, IP.B/XenForo are cheaper in renewal if you have suspended the forum for years, meaning you did not ran any forum and thus did not require updates (including bug/security fixes) or support.

    With our license system you only pay when buying a new license and when upgrading the license to access newer major releases. Updates and support for the purchased versions are included free of charge.

    On the other hand, the discount for upgrading your license gets smaller the longer you stay away. But then again, isn't it fair that we reward those customers that actively purchase new versions and thus fund the development? Also version 5.0 not only includes the changes from 4.1 -> 5.0, but also the changes from 4.0 -> 4.1 -> 5.0, thus you're getting these features too (technically you're using features initially added with 4.1 when using 5.0, but this is just stupid nit-picking).

    The last update for the Burning Board 4.0 series was on April 6th 2017 [1], considering that this version was initially released in Dec 2013, that are more than 3 years! Cost to receive that update for licensees for Burning Board 4.0: Nothing, not a single cent past the initial purchase of that major version had to be paid. Require official support for Burning Board 4.0? Sure thing, included in your purchase and still valid.

    [1] https://community.woltlab.com/thread/258468-patch-day-06-04-2017/
     
  3. The Sandman

    The Sandman Administrator

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    To me, what matters in forum software pricing is consistency and "fairness" (what I would consider "reasonable" costs). There is more than one way to go about this, and I find it hard to fault WBB's system, which I think is consistent and fair. It does tend to reward those licensees who use their licenses on a continuous basis more than it does their on again off again users, whereas XenForo for example is more favorable toward those licensees who for whatever reason let their licenses lapse for periods of time.
     
  4. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    dtdesign
    We're seeing the coin from different point of view that's why we're seeing different things while we both we're right. Better let users decide what is better for them.

    Can you honestly reply in 2 questions:
    1. Do you count as fair (and not as legal) that someone paid around $300 without using anything, without getting support for anything (you can check your support history) and now he must pay again 80% of the new license?
    2. Major release. vBulletin has released a dozen of major updates for vB4x since November 2009 (so 8 full years and not just 3) and will still gives support and updates for it. What if WBB decides to release a major update any 2 months? Do the customer need to pay for them?
    And to comment that:
    There is no award. The paid because they used the script. Do you have many clients who continue paying without using it?
     
  5. dtdesign

    dtdesign Developer

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    We do not track what people do with their forums, including if they're actively making use of them or not. We still have quite a number of customers that actively run 4.0 to this day and continue to do so because it just fits their needs. Do you expect us to punish those who make use of their license?

    To rephrase your question: Is it fair that one can use the software they've purchased (including updates & support) and then upgrade for less than a new license to get access to all the new features of the two following major upgrades?

    Absolutely, because "unfair" implies that we would take advantage of you at some point. This is simply not true, because you can still use your purchased products today and you are by no means forced to purchase the upgrade. If on the other hand you _want_ the new version, then we're granting you a discount because your license is still somewhat recent.

    Oh, and you can purchase upgrades individually, e. g. if you just want to run the forums, you can opt to upgrade only the access to the forums.

    That would be the day you could be rightfully yelling "unfair" or any other less-favorable term.

    Fact is: We don't do that, and have never done anything like this in the past. I don't see how you could derive this at all.
     
  6. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    Here is the renewal cost. $189.96 while the new license costs $239.96
    And by the way dtdesign $189.96 is equivalent to 166.28 Euros and not 189.96 Euros that your currency converter says. If Mr. Schäuble see to have Euro equivalent to USD, I'm sure that he'll start shutting hands on the table.
     

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  7. dtdesign

    dtdesign Developer

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    The displayed USD prices exclude VAT, while the displayed EUR prices include 19% VAT. The actual VAT is 0% for non-EU-customers, otherwise the local VAT rate (e. g. 19% in Germany and 24% in Greece [iirc!]).

    There us also a notice at the end of the purchase page that says it:
    When USD is selected: "All prices excluding VAT, VAT will be added for EU customers."
    When EUR is selected: "All prices including 19% VAT."
     
  8. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    That's for sure a joke. Have bought 100's (really 100's) of scripts since 1998. All of them allow me to use (without renewal) the version that I paid for.

    Please let's let this argue out. Didn't came here to argue with you, is normal that you follow company's path. I just seen a review for WBB and I wanted to inform fellow buyers for this issue with the renewal. A review must covers all aspects.
     
  9. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    That's illegal. Search in eu official site and you'll see that if I provide you a valid EU VAT id you must exclude VAT.
     
  10. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    Could you please explain me what that it means? Because I don't know such a suffix on my country's name.
    And just FYI is Hellas (EL) and not Greece (GR). The full official name is Hellenic Republic
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  11. dtdesign

    dtdesign Developer

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    VAT isn't added if you provide a valid VAT ID, but this information is not available at the time you review the purchase page, therefore the "normal" prices are displayed. My point is that you were comparing wrong numbers, as you used the USD price as listed and compared it straight to the EUR price which (as displayed) includes VAT. You'll first have to deduct the the VAT from the EUR prices before you can compare them agains the USD pricings.

    In short: I was refering to the displayed value before you are able to provide any VAT ID. VAT is not included if you provide a valid VAT ID during the checkout process.

    iirc = if I recall correctly
     
  12. we_are_borg

    we_are_borg Administrator

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    WBB is not responsible that you did not use the software. The same goes for other clients. WBB makes a price and calculates how long they can support that before they need to release a new version. That people dont make use of support means that they have more time for others that need more support on average, or they make a little more profit.
     
  13. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    Nobody said something like this. Actually for all examples that I used there I added "for my own reasons". On the same manner I wrote that my post has nothing to do with the quality of the script and also gave my awards to their support team. I just don't agree (even if I've to accept) their renewal policy. This is what I wrote.

    And in another thread when I asked dtdesign why the don't inform users for new versions he replied that I had to follow them in Twitter. So, what if someone (like me) is not using Twitter?
     
  14. GTB

    GTB Tazmanian

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    That is actually a valid point

    Did you say before that when they update to a new version you cannot download the version you have a license for any longer?
     
  15. dtdesign

    dtdesign Developer

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    Actually, the Twitter feed is embedded on the admin panel's main page, that is the page you will be redirect too after a regular login. They're published on our Facebook site.

    You can find them in a dedicated section of our forums, you can subscribe to that forum and receive notifications for new threads, optionally by email too! There is also the RSS feed for that forum section.

    We do not send out mass emails to customers though, but this has other (mostly legal, thanks EU/Germany) reasons.
     
  16. GTB

    GTB Tazmanian

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    Thank god the UK is leaving the EU.
     
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  17. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    As long as someone agreed to get some (important to me) notifications, can't see any reason to break legal rules. But again I'm not a lawyer, so can't guarantee it.

    As for all other cases, means that someone must be active user to get your news. Because if he inactive (like me), never will login to admincp, never will visits your forums.
     
  18. we_are_borg

    we_are_borg Administrator

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    You say here is it fair that you or some one else paid 300 without using anything. Like i said thats not WBB's problem there not responsible for people using the software or support. You dont have to pay the renewal fee but they do not have to give you access to the new version.
     
  19. ChrisTERiS

    ChrisTERiS Developer

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    Yes, this is what exactly that I'm saying and sorry but is not for discussion. I'm 61yo, so mature enought to have the right to have MY OWN opinion and share it in the forums. Never used wording like "Stay away from this script..." etc etc. I post a well detailed (according to my English level) opinion and I'm letting users to have their own. If it's good or not, if it's legal or not, if it's fair or not, the readers will decide and not me or you. By posting pages of pages mostly goes to argue and be sure that I don't like to argue with anyone. The only that I want is to have "Free speech" (always polite).

    Edited:
    It's up to you (and to anybody else) to have different opinion. Just click Disagree as I did in your post and everything is fine. Nothing can makes me change my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  20. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    Actually the WBB "upgrade/support" fee process is one that I'm not crazy about and one of the reasons that I was contemplating converting the site that ran it over to IPS or XenForo. Of course with me bringing my sites down that is not a factor in what I do now - but it would/will be if I decide to bring them back up in the future. WBB will not be what it runs under.
     
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