*Warning: Disturbing/NSFW* Conflicted, upsetting. Maybe it's someone else, but I don't think so.

Discussion in 'Forum Software' started by punchbowl, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    One pedophile turning on the other to try to save the face that they don't have, how ironic.

    I wouldn't trust Fillip Hannisdan as far as I can throw him, he so obviously did it and after all these pages we have no clue what these alleged drawings even contained, the only reason he's not locked up for years is because the British Court System is backlogged with cases, so they have to give out tooons of community service sentences.

    Going after someone for drawings of kids having sex? They have barely enough resources to go after real images of abuse, unless the system is completely brain-dead. I honestly wouldn't be surprised with the U.K. tbh, they love to create the illusion that they're making things better while ignoring real problems.

    And if you actually read the article, he self-admitted himself into a support group / therapy sessions out of his own volition made specifically to stop people looking at abuse imagery and jumping on people. The court didn't order this, so he is obviously having some sort of problem.

    I'll give him credit for actually trying to tackle the problem, but really, he should have done it a long time ago before... Oh hey, the police have caught me, well I guess I have to stop now, damn it.

    I still think the law against drawings is stupid.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  2. Vekseid

    Vekseid Participant

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    Gave my staff all a virtual hug after reading this thread.

    During my time running Elliquiy and Blue Moon, I've had to report two people to NCMEC, a third person to the UK equivalent (who never followed up with me on it), and banned a fourth after his ex found out about his previous conviction and blasted half the forums on the Internet about it. I wouldn't be surprised if a few people on this thread know who I'm talking about with that one. Still more we boot, but with no evidence or admission to an actual crime - writing text is perfectly legal in the United States, and for reasons well beyond freedom of speech. Making it illegal to describe your own rape is intensely problematic.

    Reporting to NCMEC made me want to vomit.

    My adult forums also have a strict image policy regarding underaged images. Elliquiy doesn't allow images of anyone under 18 to be uploaded to or hotlinked on the site period. I even relocalized 'child board' to 'sub board' to placate people. We regularly ask members to put names to faces so we know they are of age - or at least point to someone who has taken the 2257 responsibility to do so.

    About once a month we get someone ranting at us for our 'prejudice' against lolicon and/or shotacon. It's a common trait among all of them; pedophiles, when called out, seem to be completely unapologetic.As if incapable of believing what they do is wrong.

    When they face genuine consequences for their actions, the remorse sometimes comes out. I tend to accept said remorse as genuine, if only because most people are, and I am not aware of pedophilia being comorbid with lacking empathy.

    ----

    That said, something bothers me about this thread.

    Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Someone doesn't wake up and choose to be attracted to children.

    Like pyromania, it is a disorder with serious societal consequences. Unlike pyromania, seeking help for liking fire too much is a completely different than seeking help for being attracted to children..

    This has serious consequences. The fewer pedophiles who seek help on their own, the fewer pedophiles who can be stopped before they start.

    Everyone who preaches a screed like

    "You're defending a pedophile!"

    Is part of this problem.

    I've come to suspect this sheer hostility is part of what drives so many of them to believe what they do is normal and acceptable. They can't risk trying to find support through healthy means; the attitude they face is borderline homicidal.

    Instead, they seek out others like themselves. In forming these close-knit communities united in the literal rape of children, they come to view their state as perfectly normal and rational.

    For this, if nothing else, I am willing to take Fillip H. at his word.

    I'm not taking his word about what he did. I am not passing judgment, that isn't my responsibility. Or any of ours - he was caught and sentenced.

    I am taking his word about being remorseful for it. The legal apparatus apparently thought rehabilitation was possible.

    Rehabilitation requires some measure of social tolerance.

    ...I still feel rather guilty about agreeing to the fourth ban I mentioned above. "There's a known pedophile on this erotic role-playing site! They let him stay!" Choosing between banning a member and facing social backlash that I could not easily respond to.

    In any case, I hope everyone who jumped on the 'hate the remorseful' train will come to reconsider their position.

    If not direct acceptance, then at least be accepting of those willing to extend some measure of tolerance.

    ----

    For everyone who read through all of that, thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  3. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    I did a little bit of research into the subject, otherwise we really will be turning into a bunch of talking heads pulling arguments out of thin air.

    Their brains are structured such that instead of getting nurturing instincts upon seeing children, they instead feel sexual desire. They have done brain scans confirming this. There is no known cure for severe cases other than administering anti-androgens to artificially reduce their sex drive or teaching them impulse control and empathy.

    Nowhere did it say however that this is the common case, in many cases it even suggested that many with this condition opt not to look at those images out of the same sense of morality that everyone else has and that some manage these impulses via more acceptable content that doesn't harm anyone.

    It also noted that isolation can bolster these impulses and that when looking for content to sate that they can stumble upon the echo chambers noted by Vekseid where they teach each other that raping kids is fine and perfectly acceptable.

    I strongly maintain that it is largely their personal responsibility that led to this situation and that they could have managed it accordingly. Perhaps, they could be rehabilitated, but I'm not going to pretend that they are faultless.

    I'm going to wash my hands now and try to think of something on a lighter note. Too dark.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  4. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1466A
    https://blog.discordapp.com/maintai...ord-with-over-200-million-people-f0b39adfc00c

    It is illegal. Would not host. Ever.
     
  5. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    Oh, what the hell, I'll drop down some references just in case someone bumps this out of the blue in five months.

    https://www.medicaldaily.com/inside...al-differences-those-who-harm-children-402364
    Brain scans, first thing that came up in the search results.
    With any luck, we'll be able to find them before they go out and stir up trouble on the streets.

    There's one about cartoons particularly being beneficial, but it isn't in English.

    https://metro.co.uk/2016/11/17/non-...-all-paedophiles-are-child-molesters-6263925/
    Some alledgedly don't commit any crimes. This is clever wording of course because they don't consider non-pornographic images of kids a crime or cartoons.

    https://www.cracked.com/personal-ex...ed-infiltrating-deep-web-child-molesters.html
    A forum from hell. This is why I am so inclined not to give Filip and Ian any sympathy. Perhaps, they can be rehabilitated and perhaps they went to a different one, but these people are absolutely terrifying. You may find this article extremely disturbing and upsetting.

    I'm not convinced all the people who look at even the extreme cartoons are actually paedophiles, but paedophilia is no minor matter.
     
  6. phatcows

    phatcows Enthusiast

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    I think the judgement of 'clever wording' is a little unfair. If you used similar judgement in most other crimes, it wouldn't fit.
    The guy in the article (Todd) admitted to being a paedophile. You would have to expect the scrutiny he received from the law would have been high. If you go to a police station and say 'I'm an axe murderer', they'll take it seriously.

    I'm not daft, and I know the long bow being strung here. Because Todd has admitted to being a paedophile, then looking at non-pornographic images of kids or cartoons (although surely this would need to be further defined?), is still 'wrong'. But there's no clever wording. It's not a crime.
     
  7. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    I'll put it another way then.

    People talk about rehabilitation as if it will prevent people doing these things, but in many cases, the support services simply shunt them onto alternative media as opposed to the abusive ones and try to avoid them escalating to physical crimes. The Lucy Faithful Foundation, with the exception of their branch in the United Kingdom, which operates "Stop it now" which is the most popular one do this.

    I would suggest not having unrealistic expectations about what treatment they will and won't get and how they will turn out in the end.
     
  8. phatcows

    phatcows Enthusiast

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    I suppose the problem there is that some people don't realise that rehabilitation is not a cure, nor a guarantee. It's supposed to improve the chances in success in preventing a crime, but it's not a catch-all. It's a similar environment with heavy drug use.
     
  9. Liam W

    Liam W Coder/Designer

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    That's because it isn't a crime. Yes, they might be doing additional things in their mind using the images they can see, but as a society, we have yet to criminalise thoughts... which is good, because the majority of humans would be guilty of some horrific things if we treated thoughts the same as actions.
     
  10. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    Liam W That isn't entirely true, there are thoughts that are criminal or which will incur forced corrective action under the UK's Mental Health Act. For instance, if you hear voices inside your head, then that could very well be a "thought", but it could still be something that society believes necessitates some level of intervention.

    Someone could well decide that they would prefer to have these thoughts, as they believe that any measures are ineffective or otherwise invasive or have worse side-effects. Society on the other-hand may have different designs.

    Well, I'll leave it up-to the experts to figure it out, but if they thought someone was really dangerous due to that, then they always have the option of putting them away in a padded cell.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  11. sanction9

    sanction9 Enthusiast

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    Maybe an example of the classic which came first, the chicken or the egg, question? Are the differences in their brains the cause or the effect of their thinking? ;)

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-your-thoughts-change-your-brain-cells-and-genes_b_9516176
     
  12. fixer

    fixer I'm In My Prime

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    my opinion...

    thoughts vs acts?

    i have thought about hurting people but that don’t make me a murderer

    I think dark thoughts pop into every normal humans mind

    however... i can honestly say ive never thought about kids in any sicko way

    That’s not normal I don't care how anyone spins it, rather it’s a cartoon or real

    If you are into that sort of thing you should not be loose in the general population. Period.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  13. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    There was a Canadian scientist that says it occurs during pregnancy, so likely not, although it is looking to have multiple causes.
    The choice is generally lock them away in a mental hospital and throw away the key or pray that the ones you don't lock away are low risk enough that they don't strike and try to reduce the chances of them striking.

    As for why they are not all thrown in a mental hospital, there are too many of them and it is impossible to find them without also throwing random parents in prison for taking images one misconstrues to be "dangerous". Considering that the U.K. put someone on a list for BDSM however, it isn't something that would be particularly surprising.

    Locking someone away or otherwise penalising them also disincentivizes them from getting treatment. Canada tried that and they just fled for the hills.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  14. sanction9

    sanction9 Enthusiast

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    I think that's pretty speculative at this point. I've been alive long enough to see how often scientists have changed their minds about the health risks/benefits of something as simple as drinking coffee, so color me skeptical on that one. :LOL:
     
  15. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    Research into the results of scientific research (no pun intended) suggests you are right to be sceptical. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence to suggest that the results from the majority of scientific research is wrong. Here's a fairly well balanced view of that opinion which explains some of the reasons why that is: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39054778
     
  16. sanction9

    sanction9 Enthusiast

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    Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. Still, just the fact that you have people like that checking up on the work of others is encouraging and itself shows that some good science is still being done. I'm not one of the growing number of people these days who seem to think that all science is bogus and that any ol' opinion they want to latch on to that tells them what they want to hear is just as valid.
     
  17. MagicalAzareal

    MagicalAzareal Magical Developer

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    It's not new. It's been around over and over since 2011 or so, I vaguely recall stories of missing parts of the brain in the media or whatever even when I was in school, which kind of goes back to the old adage that a lot of people in prison in general have brain damage or some mental problem. There was a paper showing a statistical correlation between head injuries and ending up in prison.

    And research has a lot of problems in general as a lot of scientists go in looking for a specific result and they have a tendency of joining lines how they please. This isn't talking specifically about this. There is also https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02960-3 which goes into how journals like to publish results that look prestigious more than anything else. You are right that science can be dodgy in general.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  18. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    Definitely. Independent peer reviews are essential for separating the good from the bad and it seems the scientific community is more open to them now than they have been in the past.
     
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