US and EU politics

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by we_are_borg, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    So, you're not considering running for office, then?

    We've made this mess ourselves by creating a system operated by professional politicians, whose sole goal is to get elected and stay in office. We could have a better system, but most people don't want the job. If we chose politicians like we choose juries, we'd likely get better governments.
     
  2. Maddox

    Maddox Moderator

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    Nah, if I ran for office my first on the list of things to do would be to sack the lot of them and get some real people into positions who understand what it's like to be on the outside. And I agree, we have been conditioned to accept that this is the way it has to be and we just go along with it; MP's are 'supposed' to represent the people who put them into that position, but once they get there their attitude changes to one of 'stuff you I'll do what I think is best for you and you can either like it or lump it' knowing fine well that we will have to lump it until the next time they ask for our votes.

    If it were legal I'd line them all up to be shot for being traitors - I've never, ever met an honest politician, either national nor local - they're in it for the gravy train ride and I've seen it happen so many times it makes me puke.

    ;)
     
  3. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    Sometimes decent and honest will not work with compassionate. You just can't solve all the worlds (or countries) problems by legislation.... that's where morality comes in - something most Western countries are now seriously lacking. Societies moral compass broke decades ago and now it's every person for themselves more than it ever was.
     
  4. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    I disagree. I don't think there's been any significant change in society's sense of morality. It's just that people have become afraid of doing "the right thing" because it may get them sued later. I think there is a disconnect between morality and legality.
     
  5. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    You just answered a moral reason in the red text. Back in the "day" you didn't find people suing folks for helping/doing the right thing....
    And yes, there HAS been a morality slippage in the Western world....
    How often do you now see young men (and women) holding open a door for those older than them?
    How often do you hear simple the simple words "Thank You" and "Please" from younger generations?
    How often do you see neighbors helping other neighbors with chores when they are ill/injured/away?

    All these little things are a sign of changing morality - in my opinion a loss of moral compass of the younger generation. It's all about "me" and no longer about others.
     
  6. Maddox

    Maddox Moderator

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    I tend to agree and lean towards the ideology that 'most' people are in it for themselves now; there are many, many reasons for this lack of good social intercourse, but you see it everywhere, where all of what Tracy PerryTracy Perry mentioned above is played out. Even when someone holds a door open (generally the older generation who do this) there is no acknowledgement, no thank you.

    People have become isolated from a good moral compass and it really all begins in the home and then in the schools and later on when these morally misguided people have families of their own and so begins the downward spiral. There are 'some' people who believe in taking responsibility for their actions and their children's upbringing, but they are sadly in the minority in many places; I see this every day when I go into town and it's not only disgusting to see the behaviour on display, it's disheartening too.

    I understand where Nev_DullNev_Dull is coming from in regard to becoming the victim for wanting to help someone in distress, but that's a social problem that has been allowed to mature over time and coupled with the lack of morality in people it opens the doors wide for this type of behaviour. And it's not isolated to any one particular country, every country has its share of the lost and lonely and it's a damning indictment on society.

    Which brings me back to the politics involved which has allowed this dire situation to evolve; they don't want to rock the boat they are sailing on, so they steer a course away from things that could brew up a storm and take the soft approach to keep calm and carry on. None of them have any backbone to tackle the real issues that have created this situation and it's their fault for not manning up and doing the right thing. They pacify the minority to the sacrifice of the majority with their namby pamby hand-holding of issues that should never become issues. There's far too much political correctness in the world and the world is suffering because of it.

    ;)
     
  7. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    You're describing an unavoidable inevitability that happens to us all.

    You've become your parents (or grandparents) :eek::D
     
  8. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    I disagree. It's not a moral choice, it's a practical response to a real threat. Yes, a doctor who steps in to help someone on the street didn't used to have to worry about a lawsuit if the person dies or suffers a lingering injury, but that speaks more to greed than the morality of helping others.

    Times change. Etiquette and politeness don't equate to morality. Men don't always remove their hats inside or dress for dinner, and women sometimes wear revealing clothing (so I've heard). People sometimes even wear white after Labour Day. That doesn't mean society is sinking into a moral pit.

    We Canuckians have a reputation for being very polite. For the most part, that's still true. We tend to say "please" and "thank you" a lot throughout the day. We hold doors for each other, regardless of age or sex. Just yesterday, I was at the grocery store, where it was "old farts day" (People from nearby seniors' residences are bussed over to do their weekly shopping). As I made my purchases, I saw several examples of young people reaching items for older shoppers (helped a couple myself).

    None of that means Canadian society is more or less moral than another. You can help an old lady across the street, fix the neighbour kid's bike, rescue a kitten, and still go home and beat your wife. I don't think social consciousness comes from following the rules of etiquette. I think it comes from respecting the people that make up our society, and from accepting all their differences, be it colour, religion, gender, background, or economic standing. It's a lot more difficult to rob or do harm to someone you respect.
     
  9. Maddox

    Maddox Moderator

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    It's a general decline in standards - there is little respect for anyone these days, even less self-respect and that is generally based on moral and ethical standards which apparently don't apply much these days. Sign of the times is what most will say - I would say that it's not so much a sign of the times, rather it's a decline of the times; times when people were more respectful towards others and had standards by which they lived by.

    OK, this isn't the 18th Century, but that doesn't mean we have to let standards slip so far down the slope that the only way is to follow them down that slope. People are, in general, reverting to savagery; not so much the savagery we all know from jungle stories and medieval times, but in their general behaviour towards one another. I look at them down in town, they're not just unemployed, they're unemployable. And it starts in the home with the parents; there has been a steady and noticeable decline in standards in the home - often the parents are worse than the kids. The frightening part is that these are the people who are supposed to be our future.

    The politics of today has played a great part in that decline, with the namby pamby nanny state at the heart of it all. I read in the newspaper the other day that quiet rooms are being provided with counsellors for students who are distressed about taking exams; all we got was a clip around the ear and told to buck your ideas up or we'd amount to nothing - we did. But now it's all gone so soft that people expect to be handed everything on a plate and be counselled too when it all gets too much for them.

    So yeah it's a decline in moral standards on a personal front and a decline in ethics from a society viewpoint. It's disgusting, demoralising and demeaning that we have allowed this to come about. Now it's gone too far to backtrack it all, so we are left in a mire that is just getting deeper. Sad times.

    ;)
     
  10. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    Pretty sure legislation was passed (at least here in Texas) that insulates them from lawsuits as long as it was in "good faith" and the act is not willfully or wantonly negligent. Referred to as the Good Samaritan law. Came about because of the new "mejority" of the self-centered and looking for that easy buck.

    Maybe not in your mind... but in mine (and many others) it does. The two go hand in hand with each other.
    And showing lack of respect (which details in many of those examples you quoted back that stated had nothing to do with morality) is ever present.
    If you are in an area where the youth are taught that, then count yourself lucky. Even in Texas (which is known for it's southern friendliness as long as you don't act stoopid and intrude on another persons rights) it has slipped by the way-side.

    Yep, and when you laugh at that type of crap, you are accused of not being "sensitive" or "having compassion for others"... well, I'm of the belief that adversity makes you stronger.... and all society is raising now (in the most part) are useless breasts to be installed on boar hogs.
     
  11. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    Wow, dude. You're really bumming me out.

    I don't think it's as bad as all that. I agree with you in that we have managed to build a society that successfully shields young people from the pesky realities of life and responsibility. That's our failing, not theirs. It is the generations before that set the stage and make the rules.

    Plenty of people said similar things about my generation of long-haired layabouts with our penchant for spending all our time in pinball arcades and cruising the streets all night in noisy cars. We (mostly) turned out okay.

     
  12. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    I still don't agree with equating the two, it's causation without correlation. However, I also agree with you in terms of the behaviours. I do believe that the practice of politeness can generate a change how we treat each other. That's basic cognitive theory stuff. If you carry out those acts of etiquette and politeness, over time they become part of your default set of behaviours. That can (not necessarily will) generate a change in your attitude towards others.

    At the same time, we should understand that the world of the younger generations isn't the same. They face new and different pressures and challenges that we didn't, just as we faced a different world than our predecessors. In many ways, I think younger people are far more tolerant and accepting of others and others' differences than our generation. To us, they may often seem rude and self-centred. Maybe we have to start looking at things through their eyes.
     
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  13. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    As I hinted at earlier it's inevitable that we grow up, become our parents and moan about the youth of today. It's been that way since forever, it's called getting old.

    The majority of young people I know including my daughter and her friends are friendly, polite, hard working and well behaved to an extent that would put my generation to shame. They are also far more tolerant of other people's preferences and cultures than any previous generation I've known. There are of course exceptions as there have always been but in general I see no decline in standards, just a different way of life.
     
  14. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    I guess it depends on where you are then or if you live in a "protected area"... as I have observed first hand in various businesses and also been told by numerous persons in management lately that their current crop of "hires" have no real desire to work. According to the management I've spoken with they come in believing they are owed a job and salary. They tend to not play well with others (several used the term uncontrolled backstabbing in an attempt to advance).
    Of course, what can you expect when many of them are the product of latchkey children that became parents and fail to indoctrinate their children in expected (and acceptable) behavior.
    Respect has been on a downward decline for a while.
    https://www.today.com/popculture/r-e-s-p-e-c-t-where-has-it-wbna33229370
    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/lack-manners-todays-society
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ct-schools-teachers-parents-students/4789283/
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hority-attacking-parents-police-teachers.html

    And there are tons more articles related to this.
    All one has to do is listen to conversations amongst many of the others... they refer to each other regularly as nigga, mother ****er, and various other names that they have accepted as being the "norm" that older generations would not have called their friend unless they were ready for a fight to ensue.
    Luckily I'll be either dead or in a state of being that won't care about what's going on by the time most of this group assumes control of our government.
     
  15. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    Environment is a factor but it doesn't necessarily play out in obvious ways. I went to a 'posh' grammar school where discipline was maintained with considerable physical violence. I hated it and left at 14 by mutual agreement with the educational learning of an 11 year old. My daughter went to a rough, multicultural school where over 40% of the children didn't have English as a first language. As of today she's one professional exam away from being a fully qualified actuary.

    Perhaps it's geographical. I moved from the big city to a home by the sea. Everybody here regardless of age stops and says hello. At first I genuinely wondered what it was they wanted from me, it took a while to realise they were just being friendly.

    Incidentally you quoted the Mail Online. To call it virtual toilet paper is an insult to virtual toilet paper :D
     
  16. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    Just because they are toilet paper does not necessarily mean their article does not have validity. Even the National Enquirer gets it right every now and then. ;)
     
  17. Maddox

    Maddox Moderator

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    Not intentional, just that there are areas that are generally in decline where it has become a 'free for all'. When you say 'our failing' you can count me out, it's more the failing of the mid-generation where all the political correctness has stemmed from - if it were down to me I would reinstall some of the disciplines that are lacking today. Today society is failing the current upcoming generations by simply accepting that 'this is the way it is' rather than taking action and saying 'this is the way it should be'. Too much political correctness and too much, as you quite rightly put it, shielding the waifs and strays from the realities of life.

    In many areas there is 'no hope' and no opportunities and a generation is being left to rot; that's societies fault and societies in general have become insular and self-protecting by wrapping up in a plastic bubble that alienates others. People don't know their neighbours, people don't go out of their way to help others in their neighbourhood, people are envious and jealous and they bring their kids up to be the same. Sure not everyone is like that, but is becoming the visible norm in many, many places and society turns a blind eye because it would otherwise become and inconvenience to them to do something about it.

    I went to a comprehensive school where insubordination was met with physical punishment - pain is an incredibly wonderful teacher and often the only way to make an impression on a youngling to forge the difference between what is and is not acceptable behaviour. There were some teachers who gave the impression that they used to revel in meting out a whack or two with a cane or belt, but it did no lasting harm and restored discipline in the classroom. Now if a teacher so much as looks at a pupil in a disdainful way, the parents are up in arms and looking to sue; it's madness. If I got wrong at school and went home and told my parents, I would get another scolding off them for doing something that warranted me getting wrong in the first place.

    There are still some amazing kids out there, some caring and compassionate teenagers and some insightful and intelligent 20-somethings, but man they are fast become the exception rather than the rule and that is played out by people's attitudes now who couldn't give a damn about others as long as 'I'm alright Jack'.

    A friend of mine (a very wise man) once equated society to being like a nuclear reactor - pull out the control rods and the reactor fires up and generates energy, push them back in and the reactor cools and behaves. He warned back in the late 1980's that we were in danger of not only pulling the control rods out, but actually throwing them away and so society will end up in meltdown. It's coming I only hope that when it finally nukes out I won't be here to see it happen because that will be a dire day indeed. Of course some may wake up to the fact that the controls need to be polished off and put back in place, one can only hope that they, for a change, will be in the majority.

    ;)
     
  18. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    Heck, it's beyond that...frequently the teach is met with physical violence from the student. And then you start hearing the crying of excuses for the behavior of the student. I guarantee you that back when I was in school, you did that crap to any male teacher and you'd find yourself waking up on the floor. Once you woke up you would then find yourself wearing some nice shiny bracelets and being escorted to either the adult or juvenile facility - dependent upon your age.
    If you did it to a female teacher odds were the other students in the class would be wearing your ass out.
    Thing is.. the entire time I was in school I NEVER heard nor saw of an incident of a teacher being assaulted by a student.
    Even after graduation and upon becoming a law enforcement officer in the city I was raised in for the 3 years I was working patrol I never heard of it happening - that would have been through mid 1985.
    Agreed... there are still kids out there that were raised by parents with good parenting skills.. but they are WAY outnumbered by those that have not had real (consistent and firm) parental control exerted over them.
     
  19. Maddox

    Maddox Moderator

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    100% agree with this. These are kids whose parents actually 'wanted' to have kids and share in their development; there are vast numbers out there who see kids as cash cows, a means to an end. I've seen this happen numerous times, kids left outside amusement arcades in all weathers with a sausage roll stuck in their hands whilst the mother and father are inside drinking free tea and coffee whilst they spend the family allowance on the slot machines.

    When I was at school it was unheard of for someone to attack a teacher and teachers only resorted to physical punishment when no other means worked. It reminds of the old Victorian values of 'spare the rod and spoil the child' - never a more true word was spoken. Kids nowadays only have to say 'I want' and it's there, just to pacify them so the parents can watch TV in peace.

    I was brought up in a family of two distinct sides - a mother who was loving, caring, compassionate and would go without herself to ensure the rest of the family was attended to; a father who worked hard and put food on the table and kept a roof over our heads, but who was selfish, unloving and cold. So I saw the two sides of humanity under one roof - I fully believe that it has made me what I am today, along with my own experiences along the road of life. There was punishment from both parents if I overstepped the mark, as with all kids we pushed the boundaries but when we overstepped the mark we got knocked back. Today kids overstep the boundaries and new ones are then drawn up, which they then step over and more new ones are drawn up - ad-infinitum.

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  20. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    It certainly taught me a number of life lessons that still affect me to this day. It taught me that there is very little correlation between crime and punishment. It taught me that there are an alarming number of adults who get sexual gratification inflicting violence on children. It also taught me that the winner is the last man left standing. That took a while to unlearn.

    Seriously, if you have to resort to physical violence to get your point across, you have failed.

    Good old Victorian values... an era during which children were hung by the neck until dead, forced into prostitution, sent abroad to the colonies by the thousand, forced to work down mines and in workhouses... it's an endless list of abuse and despair, and I think it's fair to say the morality of the adults involved in those atrocities is somewhat questionable.

    I'm not suggesting that everything is perfect in the world but I don't believe there's been a general decline in standards. It's true to say standards have changed, mostly for the better in my opinion. The younger generation are far more tolerant than my generation was at their age. They are also generally healthier, better educated, and better off financially.
     
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