US and EU politics

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by we_are_borg, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Jura

    Jura Devotee

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    If I was escaping genocide, war, and famine then I'd go where people take me. Preferably a place of opportunity to become productive.
    There are no socialist countries in the EU. Some northern countries are social democracies, but that is capitalism.

    California being socialist sounds amazing.
     
  2. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    France is frequently considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Belgium is frequently considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Denmark is frequently considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Germany is considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Ireland is considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Netherlands is considered a social democratic welfare state by many.
    Portugal is dominated by the social democratic party.

    Care for me to continue?
    It is all a form of socialism - not communism as many think they are one and the same.
     
  3. Jura

    Jura Devotee

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    All countries mentioned are capitalist.
     
  4. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    And I don't argue that point.. you can be capitalistic and socialistic at the same time. That's why they are referred to as socialistic democracies.
    Many in the EU are strong believers in taking from those that have and redistributing it to those who don't.
     
  5. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    Social Democracy is not Socialism. And you can include your country in that list. Despite the ingrained American fear of Socialism, you have a plethora of those social programs, from unemployment insurance, government pension programs, welfare, and even unions. All are designed to balance the inequities of pure capitalism, which is the hallmark social democracy.
     
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  6. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    And neither is socialistic.... If I had of meant Socialism I would have specified that fact.
    And yes, unluckily the US in many ways are headed that way - led by Kalifornia.

    Many of which need to go the way of the dodo.
    Welfare for welfare's sake - don't even get me going there. We have "families" that simply have more kids because it brings them in more money. They are to ingrained to living off the public teat to even attempt to go get a job.
    But I'm the first to admit that I lean more towards the conservative side. If you can't "make it" on what you earn, then you either adjust your living standards or get off your ass and work more.
     
  7. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    Now you're just playing semantics. Socialistic, is just an adjective of Socialism.

    I can't help wondering, in your vision, about the people who can't work more (or at all) and those who are marginalized by economics, race, health, or circumstance.

    I'm quite happy to live in a social democratic country where I don't have to worry if I can afford to go to the doctor when I'm sick and where people trying to live on minimum wage can still get affordable housing and access to programs to help them get out of poverty. It's not a perfect system by any means and certainly has it's share of abusers. However, it does help a lot of people who aren't in positions to help themselves and gives them a chance to become contributing citizens. That seems like a worthy goal for any society.
     
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  8. Brad

    Brad Meh

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    I traded in my video games for rifles some time ago but mostly because it is more fun shooting thing IRL than it is on a screen. I've noticed a lot of my peers have done the same thing, maybe not taking up a gun hobby but certainly playing video games and watching TV less. It's like everyone got burned out on it but I think a lot of it has to do with most of them being rehashes/crap now. It's hard to relate to anything on TV when nothing is based on the culture I grew up in anymore. TV has gotten so fake with the forced diversity where every show has to have: Token black/white couple, token gay man, token transexual, token loser geek white guy that can't stand up for himself, token redneck/hick that is low IQ and constantly spewing racism. Every character and situation just feels forced/fake. It doesn't represent reality. The worst part is the real life counterparts to all of those token characters hate them. I have various friends from different backgrounds and they all say the same things about modern TV/gaming. I know I've always felt that way about depictions of Southern people on TV.

    Anyway, the reason I say a war is coming is partly due to the trade disputes but mostly due to the overpopulation problem. Human population goes in cycles and when you've got too many people to feed that aren't taking care of themselves things tend to end badly. These days folks pretend we no longer have bread lines but all we've really done is hidden them behind EBT cards and federal aide.

    I'm not against those programs but we obviously have a lot of people taking advantage that don't intend on ever doing anything but collecting benefits and staying high on opioids. That's become a major problem in every place I've ever lived and I'm sick of seeing people with free health care getting opioids like that when so many working people can't even afford to see a GP. This is all by design, the powers that be want you content on opioids. You require less food and generally don't give a damn about anything when you're flying high on legal heroin 24/7. Add in the benzos, the anti-depressants, the antipsychotics, the boner pills to allow you to have sex while on the various drugs that kill your sex drive. We're all way over medicated.

    Which is probably part of the reason I gave up on video games and most entertainment. When I stopped allowing myself to be medicated/high 24/7 I woke up to the cold reality and starting noticing just how screwed we are. Most people never get to this point because they can't take the time for themselves to get clean. I know if I would have continued working hard labor I would have never been able to get off the opioids long enough to fully recover. The solutions the Government offers are not effective either. Suboxone and Methadone are just legal heroin and got me just as high as any other opioid I took with the addition of the Government making rent money off of me every month and requiring me to piss in a cup in front of a social worker. Addicts should not be placed on those things long term they'd be better off on morphine. Methadone/Subs are way worse because they're stronger, last longer, and the withdrawal is extended for months.

    Tensions are running high right now and there is a lot of misplaced hate going around. You've got groups constantly fighting in the streets and the media refuses to report on it. You've got folks becoming more radicalized on all sides. Racism is at an all time high and the folks getting the worst of it aren't even considered people in that discussion. You've got groups of native people being displaced to make room for immigrants and being told they're racist for even existing. You've got farmers in countries getting slaughtered for being the wrong color. It's no wonder they're becoming radical and well armed when no one will even comment on the problems. At some point it's going to boil over and it'll be bad when it does.

    My Grandfather was a pretty smart man and one of the last things he told me before he died was:

    He lived through WW2, Korea, 'Nam, and various other wars in his time. He was in the Army for Korea and always followed politics. If he saw a war coming I'm inclined to believe him. Everything I've seen going on since he's died has confirmed that we're on the path to war in my mind. I'm willing to admit I may be wrong and I hope I am but I'm not going to forego prepping for one because of hope. At the very least you should become familiar with operating a firearm so you can feed yourself. A war doesn't have to break out for the power to go down and the food to stop getting shipped.

    I really want to go back to the mid-90s. We were so optimistic about the future back then. It seemed like all past transgressions had been forgiven and we were on the path to something nice. Since 9/11 everything has been gloom and doom. They dropped the facade and started openly spying on everyone. I felt like I saw the world become a prison planet during the 2000s looking back on it. I don't know if it was always like that or we all just became aware of it due to the internet. Whatever changed I don't like it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  9. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    I agree that 9/11 was a turning point for the US. Looking at it from outside, we have seen the rising nationalism and xenophobia, the increasing radicalism, especially in the Christian right. So I can see how you could develop a pessimistic world view.

    Beyond your borders, all is not so gloomy. In my country, there is a general sense that we are moving forward towards a better world, despite global warming concerns and the various conflicts around the world. (That good mood will no doubt increase more in a few months when cannabis is legalized). I'm not sure, but I think the future doesn't look quite so dire across Europe either, despite economic/political turmoil in some countries and Brexit. Hell, England even made it past group eliminations in the World Cup -- a sure sign that things are looking brighter.
     
  10. Tracy Perry

    Tracy Perry Opinionated asshat

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    As if the liberal left is any better? The only real thing is that the Christian right has become more outspoken than what it has been in the past in the US.
    It wasn't the Christian right that was doing bombings in the late 60's/early 70s (that was the Weather Underground).
    It wasn't the radicalized right that committed 8200 bombings, attempted bombings and bomb threats from 01/01/1969 through 04/15/1970. That was the Students for a Democratic Society.
    There are plenty of other examples similar to this. There have historically been plenty of leftist organizations that are classified as radicalized.
    Funny you rarely hear them mentioned. It's usually only the "radical right" that you hear about in todays climate.... never the radical left, which still exists. Wonder why that is? Could it be because the majority of the places you would hear it from are already card carrying members of the left (the media)? Even with the anarchists you barely hear anything of depth about them on the current news - they are only mentioned in passing.

    As for the rise in nationalism... much like dress styles... politics is cyclical.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  11. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    You may be right (no pun intended :)) I wasn't making a judgement, just documenting the perception from here, based on our media reports. Your journalists may have become the enemy and practitioners of so called "fake news" of late but we still consider ours as providers of reasonably unbiased reporting.

    I also agree that nationalism, intolerance, and the rest do tend to follow cycles. And usually, those cycles can be traced back to periods of social unrest brought on by things like unemployment, housing shortages, rising prices, etc.
     
  12. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    USA unemployment at record lows, more people going back into the workforce, levels of optimism we haven't seen in decades, people coming off of housing and food assistance as they find jobs, projected 4+ GDP growth for 2018, businesses booming, lower taxes, consumer confidence high, record minority unemployment rates and so on.

    Don't believe what the media, which in the USA is mostly left, has to say about the mood here. All the turmoil you hear about is due to their non-stop bickering, attacks, complaining and whining. To give you an idea of how the left has been messaging things, when the jobs report came out showing 240,000+ jobs added in June, they spun it as a bad thing.
     
  13. Pete

    Pete Flavours of Forums Forever

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    Yes but we have a similar situation in the UK where we have 'record numbers of employment' because they reclassified what employed means. People on zero hours contracts are technically employed, even though their employment wouldn't really be properly employed elsewhere.
     
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  14. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    I'm always skeptical of such numbers on both sides (Causation vs correlation). The truth is usually found somewhere in the middle.
     
  15. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    They didn't reclassify what employed means here.
     
  16. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    Unemployment numbers, GDP, etc. are put out by non-partisan agencies, not political parties. You can be skeptical all you want, but when there are 6.6 million job openings and companies are having a hard time finding workers because the labor market is tight I can't help but think you're skepticism might be a bit misplaced.

    When unemployment is high, due to the way it's measured here, it's underreported, but when it's low the numbers tend to be fairly accurate. The reason why when it's high it under reports is that many people give up looking and drop off the reports.

    We haven't had this since the 1980s and 1990s. I think Trump is a boorish ass, but some basic economic policies are sound. Now if he continues this stupid tariff war it will hurt things.
     
  17. Pete

    Pete Flavours of Forums Forever

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    I wouldn’t trust any governmental statistics bureau as unbiased, even if notionally non-partisan, because that comment about reclassification happens here routinely and adjusts what comes out of the notionally non-partisan statistics bureaus...
     
  18. Maddox

    Maddox Habitué

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    I wouldn't trust ANY politician with an ice cream cornet in the Arctic and not have it melt. All politicians are liars, backstabbers and cheats who are in it for themselves, and they only really come on to you when it's time for them to grab or lose your vote, after that it's stuff you and let me see what I can reap from the gravy train before the balloon goes up and we're suddenly in the spotlight and need some kind of excuse to get out of jail free.

    I detest politics because it's all front and all fraud; I doubt any of us will live long enough to see a decent, honest and compassionate politician; all they're good for is stirring up trouble and we're the ones who have to bail them out if it comes to confrontation; if they want a war (over whatever) then they should all go into a field and fight it out amongst themselves and leave us out of it.

    Bollocks to the lot of them; none of them deserve your support or your vote. And don't get me started on Brexit - "Brexit means Brexit" what a load of crap; Brexit means back-alley dealings and secret handshakes. I reckon that some of the folks on here could do a far better job.

    ;)
     
  19. Nev_Dull

    Nev_Dull Anachronism

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    That's good to know. I based my skepticism on my experience here. We've had non-partisan agencies quote nice sounding employment figures before. Digging deeper, you find it's a lot of minimum wage, part time work, which is good for the folks who got the jobs, but doesn't really do much for the economy.
     
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