Unfit for Purpose

Discussion in 'vBulletin' started by VICE, Dec 24, 2014.

  1. VICE

    VICE tool

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    No colored names for the staff. All usernames have the same color.

    The sage who testified he was on Xenophobia for eight years said this, is it true? If so, that would be a complete shock to me.

    Sure, he lied about "New products can sometime have small bugs" and the rest of the crap he spewed, he didn't mention that vB5 notification system is a total mess either - but none shock me the most than the inability to do this simplest thing (if true).

    Is 5.1.4 still unfit for purpose?
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  2. PoetJC

    PoetJC ⚧ Jacquii: Black Kween of TSSN ⚧

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    The *official* stance is that vBulletin is proud of the release:
    I'll personally not take their "pride" as anything of substance until the latest greatest release is up and running on all *official* sites like http://vbulletin.org
    It'll be quite telling when IB decides to upgrade all their forums (currently running vB 3.x) to vB 5. That time, obviously, is not here yet.

    J.
     
  3. s.molinari

    s.molinari Leader of Skooppa

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    Naturally it depends on what definition you have for "purpose". For some, it might be fit for purpose. For others, it isn't.

    Scott
     
  4. PoetJC

    PoetJC ⚧ Jacquii: Black Kween of TSSN ⚧

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    Some will say that it is absolutely fit for purpose = They'd be lying.
    Others - will say that no way is it fit for anything other than to serve as IB's whipping boy. They'd be lying too.
    Semantics aside - Let's not kid ourselves. vB 5 Connect - is and has been since it was introduced to the public this: An unfinished piece of software. This is terrible considering if you want it = you're paying upwards of $209 per license for the pleasure.

    Let's be honest. IB should put the Alpha/Beta stamp on all versions of vB 5. Not because I said so - but because the public sees it for what it is -- hasn't adopted it as a legitimate script -- because it needs all kinds of work!! Way to go Big Daddy IB :tdown:

    J.
     
  5. s.molinari

    s.molinari Leader of Skooppa

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    Yeah, I had been saying that for months after the initial release. But, IB taking vB5 back to beta status isn't going to happen. Never ever. More like a snowball's chances of not melting in hell kind of not happening.

    As for fit for purpose, it can fulfill the lowest of demands and run a forum for someone willing to:
    1. Put up with only 30 days support, for a software which is just barely a beta.
    2. Pay a lot of money for a beta. Oh, but you also get vB4 in that price, otherwise it would be a total joke. Better off with vB4 currently anyway.
    3. Live with sparse to lousy documentation.
    4. Find bugs, report or vote on them, and have to wait for ages to get the important ones solved. In other words, a logical customer first/ company second oriented triage is pretty much missing.
    5. Pay (a lot) more for personal support after the 30 days are up.
    6. If you don't have the personal support, you can get support on their customer forums, but because 80% of the things you find are issues with the software, you'll get kindly pointed back to the issue tracker and asked to either start an issue or vote one up. (see point4).
    7. Not expect to let your forum get big, but if it does, be willing to pay a lot for seriously overrated hardware to make it work.
    8. Live with a conceptual mess, from basic design down to the code.
    9. Not have any large 3rd party developer support (mainly because of points 5 and 3, but also because all points mentioned here = 0 popularity for the software).
    10. And the best one for last. Live with a company that doesn't respect its customers or its own products and services (in terms of vBulletin) even close to enough, as any good company should. (see points 1-9).
    Those are a lot of things to be willing to accept, but if you do, vB5 can work for you. :D

    I've also seen this illness in other companies. The problem is, money and not quality drive the company. In other words, investing smartly in the people and processes isn't a general goal to earn money. It is more about sucking out money. "Can I get money out of it, as it is, with little to no investment? If I can't, then it sucks and we won't do much more with it." Boom. That part of the company is left cold and heartless. It is a bass ackwards way of thinking and it is often the cause to the downward spiraling vortex of failure (like what you see, when you look down at a flushed toilet). Add to that some serious management incompetence and the vortex's velocity is enhanced considerably.

    Can IB get vB out of this downward vortex? Maybe. I wish they would for the sake of the online community market. Or at least I wish they'd show they are wanting to get out of it. Really I do!:) And the first step is to admitting vB5 has been pretty much a failure and how they will make up for it. Call it a Christmas wish.:D

    Scott
     
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  6. geebee

    geebee Fan

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    It's disappointing isn't it. I'm basically using my vb licences for seed sites/testing/experimenting.
     
  7. Will_Watts

    Will_Watts Habitué

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    s.molinaris.molinari - putting vB5 back into beta might be a desire of many, but would it work?

    Let's say IB is willing to put a lot of money into repairing vB's reputation. Putting vB5 back into development will cost a lot of money, and won't sell many extra copies. If it's already a loss making product, it's going to be difficult to persuade a company to invest even more money in it.

    If it was your company, how far would you go with it? If you release a commercially unsuccessful product, how do you justify sinking another million into development which you know you'll have no chance of getting back.

    Besides, is vB5 even fixable? Maybe if they completely redesign the software and release vB6, but... At best with vB5 you're going to end up with a mediocre product. You can't change its fundamental design issues by putting it back into beta.

    But anyway, I thought I'd comment on this as everyone seems to think they know what IB should do, without ever considering that they're a business. Fixing a broken product is very expensive, and in this case you can pretty much guarantee they'll get no return on it.
     
  8. geebee

    geebee Fan

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    If I were sitting at a brainstorming session I would suggest starting from scratch on a new project, let's call it 'VBulletin Ultra' and move completely away from any legacy such as vb3, 4, 5 etc. along with that, give licence holders of 3,4 and 5 the opportunity to upgrade at an attractive price to 'Ultra' for their loyalty and to rebuild bridges.

    Rebuild trust in the brand and try to reclaim market share.
     
  9. s.molinari

    s.molinari Leader of Skooppa

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    Will_WattsWill_Watts - The question is valid. Is vB5 "savable"? We've seen that refactoring has never gotten a fantastic result. One could argue it was a lack of competence, which hampered doing it right. But, when very competent people and the competition all say, "The next generation of software has to be a rewrite, to get it right", then the decision to refactor is quite a stupid one and the results also speak, again, for themselves. So, if IB were to "get it right" for the future, I also believe they would have to start something from scratch and the more time they spend messing around with vB5, the more time they are simply wasting.

    I think that answers the question about vB5.

    But, then there is the question, is vBulletin "savable" as a brand?

    Sad to think it isn't. Again, I wish there were more signs from IB that there is a lot of interest to rebuild the brand. A statement of a total rewrite for vB6 might be a good sign, possibly? A "change of the guard" might also be a good one too.

    Scott
     
  10. GTB

    GTB Tazmanian

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    I agree with what Will Watts said. vB5 is already a proven flop, still years on. So why waste more money into something everyone has lost interest and faith in ever being anything more than a buggy inferior forum product.
     
  11. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    I completely agree, there's little point in ploughing resources into such an obvious failure. If vBulletin wants to redeem themselves they need to release a new product that's better than the competition and usable out of the box.
     
  12. rudedog

    rudedog Jim

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    Aren't we due for another money grab? (Next release for sale) . I can't see them sustaining themselves with Cloud sales
     
  13. Will_Watts

    Will_Watts Habitué

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    That might be their long term goal, but we don't know what the internal politics of IB are like. Let's say vB management are actually on the ball, and they know what they need to do to redeem the brand in the long term - they still have to justify to the rest of IB why they should be trusted to create a new product when the last one has been so unsuccessful.

    Sure, they could be more open about the current state of vB5, but... if you know you don't have any more budget to develop vB6, and you know that you can't fix vB5... what exactly do you tell people? "We know we screwed up vB5, but we have nothing else to offer you as to what steps we're taking to rebuild trust".

    IB gets a lot of flac, and clearly vB has been mismanaged. But... IB is a smart company - they're a digital company that has grown to a huge size in a very competitive market. This is not a company run by idiots, but decisions they make are going to be towards what they feel are the companies best interests and not the forum owner. That said, not everything they've done has been the "correct" decision, but some mistakes are very expensive to correct...

    Hopefully in the long term they will rewrite vB and release a vB6. They might not view it as profitable enough for them to do so though - the SaaS business model might prove more lucrative for them...
     
  14. rudedog

    rudedog Jim

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    The problem with vB's SaaS business plan is it's based on vB5. I would assume the hardware it takes costs them $$ or their provider will wake up and tell them to get their act together and kick them out (amazon)
     
  15. Boothby

    Boothby Enthusiast

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    vB is going the way that others went long before. Let's say UBB as an example. They are way too unflexible and don't understand the market and their customers. IB is too big and vBSI is too small inside the IB monster to get enough attention. The result is that market share and customer base are sinking rapidly. The whole ecosystem is breaking, too. They both need each other. But nobody cares.
    We often ask people why they chose vB5 (or want to choose it). The answers are most the same, because vBulletin is/was good, not knowing the real situation about the product. vBulletin is only living from the past and left reputation from another time.

    I don't think that vBulletin has a future. Not under the current circumstances. It may kept alive as a niche respectively fan product. But resurrect to old strength and greatness? I don't think so, not in my wildest dreams.

    Merry Christmas!!
     
  16. we_are_borg

    we_are_borg Administrator

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    The question is why do you want to save vBulletin at all, we are trying this from 2010 but nothing has changed, you could say its gotten worse. You see sometimes staff question whats going on but there to afraid to lose their jobs in stead fighting for better script. This means take it in the public so that customers can see that they try. But in all these years nothing at all it toke more then a year that vBulletin was usable and that was forum only. If the staff does not want to improve let them go out of business to bad for the people working there but better for the customers.
     
  17. VICE

    VICE tool

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    Not to spoil the party, but is this true?
     
  18. DemOnstar

    DemOnstar 50 years in the making

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    SOLVED.
     
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  19. VonDoom

    VonDoom XenForo FTW

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    Everything vB is a joke.. vB3 is old, vB4 had the exact same initial reception as vB5 but improved.. Problem with vB is they treat all their customers as if they are stupid. They act like we do not know what we want and think they need to hold our hand.. Their "Licensed Customer Feedback Forum" is private and all negative comments or threads are moved there so potential customers never see the real authentic feedback.. this alone proves they have something to hide. Its obvious the natives are restless because they are getting unfriendlier with their own customers each and every day.. you can almost see upper management seething at anyone who dares ask a question or point out a flaw. Even their choice of moderators now days only comes down to loyalty and has little to do with ability. The ship is sinking and the rats have already abandoned it way back when v4 was the same dismal mess.. Only newbies and diehards remain unless you're on IB's payroll. lol i mean it cost twice as much as anything im using in production at the moment therefore it must be twice as good. right? Ultimately i consider vB as thieves and will never do business with them as long as the current shysters are in control.
    Capture_147 Dec. 25 10.42 AM.jpg
     
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  20. Brad

    Brad Meh

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    I assumed I was the only one around that still remembers the UBB/Open Topic fiasco.

    Strange to see IB run things so similar to infopop considering the same situation is what spawned vBulletin in the first place. Funny how history repeats itself.
     
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