Feedback Designs and similar "contests"

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by mysiteguy, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    One of the trends I see here is a lack of respect for the talent and time of designers. You'll see requests such as "I want a logo which looks like XYZ and I'll give $20 to the best design."

    People who do this waste the time of people who do not "win" the contest. This practice is highly discouraged by every major design group/organization because it unethically requires time, talent and resources to be committed by designers with nothing in return.

    On the side of the designers, it shows desperation, they'll work for free on the mere chance they'll win the design contest, and this ultimately devalues their work. Designers: your time, knowledge, skills and experience are valuable assets! Don't cheapen your value by giving into these requests. You are worth more than this type of abusive practice! Don't do spec work!

    Even if you think you're the best design talent here, and you win 3 of every 5 "design contests", you've reduced your income per approved design by 40% and increased the time per dollar by 40%. Get out a calculator, you'll find that doing this type of work you'd make more money doing unskilled work for Walmart!

    TAZ, I believe you should disallow this practice. I believe, though well-intentioned, this sort of thing does a disservice to those here with design talent. If someone wants a design for $x, have the designers reply with examples of previous work and perhaps referrals to other clients, and then the person making the request can choose someone do to his/her design for the fee promised. The client gets a design, the designer is compensated, and no one gets taken advantage of.

    To those making such requests, sorry if you do not agree, but my view is you're showing a callous disregard for the talent and value of other people, and taking advantage of them even if they agree to participate in your contest. I'm sure you would be angry if your employer decided every task would be handled by multiple workers and they would only pay you if you did the best job out of all your co-workers. Think about this the next time you consider a contest or any type of spec work.

    https://www.nospec.com/
    https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-spec-work-1697435
     
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  2. Steve

    Steve Administrator

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    I’m certain if any of the designers here had an issue they’d simply not “enter” the contest as you put it. The graphics request forum gets a good amount of request and I’m not seeing a reason to change it currently. It’s a great place for designers to showcase their work and the requester to get a decent deal.
     
  3. R0binHood

    R0binHood Habitué

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    While I don’t disagree that it’s tough on the losing designers, it seems to be a practice that has been the foundation and success of some very large design sites, so there must be a lot of designers that do well out of this format.

    See 99designs, design crowd etc.
     
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  4. Steve

    Steve Administrator

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    Yea nature of the beast, 48logos does the same. People want to see different designs so it’s the best way to go about it. These guys and gals doing designs are crazy good and likely spend a few moments doing a majority of the simple ones.
     
  5. zappaDPJ

    zappaDPJ Administrator

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    One possible positive aspect is it helps the designers here build a portfolio of their work which may help bring them further work.

    I'd be interested to hear what some of the designers have to say.
     
  6. Ingenious

    Ingenious Fan

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    I agree with the sentiment of the OP - offering up $10 or $20 is patently ludicrous and insulting to those doing the designing.

    But I also think the designers are old enough and wise enough to decide for themselves whether to bother. No one is forcing them to spend hours designing something for peanuts.

    And the section is quite nice to browse through, it's enjoyable seeing their designs.

    I don't see a need to change anything.
     
  7. Joel R

    Joel R Fan

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    If you have design talent, then stop dipping into the low end of the pool.

    However the reality is that design work for individuals and small sites is not high value work. Anyone with a good eye and Photoshop skills can call themselves a designer, and while you may think you're worth more than $20 / design, there's thousands of designers who charge much less. The entire website Fiverr is based on the premise of small gigs. So even though you think you're worth more than $20 / design, the rest of the market doesn't think so. As a buyer, I should absolutely extract as much value and options as I can for the best possible deal.
     
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  8. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    Those places are loaded with many people who scrape by making little to nothing, with a few winners. Much like MLM businesses.
     
  9. R0binHood

    R0binHood Habitué

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    So we should shut them all down so even fewer designers are exposed to a market they wouldn’t have access to before? And make it harder for clients to gain access to a pool if designers willing to participate in that kind of system?

    No one is stopping those designers for also working one on one with clients on a monogamous non competitive basis.
     
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  10. southernlady

    southernlady Coder/Designer

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    I agree that a better option would be for designers to put forth designs they’ve already been paid for as examples. But they weren’t required to respond.
     
  11. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    Actually, I am not a designer. I am an IT person, and what I've learned over the years in my own field is most problems customers are the result of low ball prices. Low ball prices attract low-quality customers.

    The reason I brought up this topic is I recently went against my instincts, and experience concerning cheap jobs because I felt bad for the person's situation.
    I let myself fall into the trap of a client who for very little money, pounded me with questions (for instance, 98 emails exchanged for what was a $100 task), constantly asked the same questions, wanted me to make decisions for him, and wanted to know specific details that I normally charge to implement. All the while telling me how much he valued my experience. His actions proved otherwise. Today, I happened along a recent thread here where people did designs, and the person requesting it responded that he found someone else to do it. It seemed pretty thoughtless of the person, and I felt I had to say something about how the design section here operates.

    The rest of the market you mention, that's the rest of the low ball, low-quality, low-service market. The reality is there are many people who use others, do not value others, don't care if others make a decent wage from the tasks they give them, and make excuses for it. Then there are people in this world who still value other people. Remember that the next time you see a conversation about living wages, do you offer living wages to those you hire? I hope so. :)

    Good service, low prices, high quality. Pick two.
     
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  12. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    If you read back through my post I never suggested shutting down the section. Rather, I suggested they submit samples of their previous work, rather than provide spec.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Administrator

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    I don’t really see how that would be to helpful, besides there are far more people asking for free work than paid in most cases here. It was never meant to make people money but rather be a place where admins help each other out. If I true talented person or designer decided to throw something in the mix good on them.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Administrator

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    To be honest though, it is on the radar for a rework of some sort but probably not in the sense you’re thinking mysiteguy
     
  15. we_are_borg

    we_are_borg Administrator

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    We can pick three if we wanted. If you do not want to give low rates as person or as company then don’t. There plenty of people that can draw up something in like 5 minutes and looks stunning. Why would they not take a job for free or 20 dollars for a logo, if it takes 5 minutes. That would get them 240 dollars a hour. Well they need to communicate so lets say 120 an hour, if you find it fun to do why not.

    I dont mind the following have 10 customers for 1000 dollars or 1 customer for 1000 dollars in the same time. (Really need to get back in the game)
     
  16. haqzore

    haqzore Devotee

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    I disagree with the OP for reasons already stated, so will not repeat them.

    I will add that designers who've done work for me on TAZ have been contacted by me directly, 1 on 1, for further work to the tune of a few hundred dollars (cumulatively).

    Remove it from TAZ, people will just get it elsewhere. No benefit in that to TAZ or the designers on TAZ.
     
  17. mysiteguy

    mysiteguy Devotee

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    Were they from design contests initially? If so, what happened to those who didn't win? Hundreds of dollars to each of them too in future work?

    Again, I said nothing of removing design services from TAZ.
     
  18. PoetJC

    PoetJC ⚧ Jacquii: Black Kween of TSSN ⚧

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    The 90's style logo for my Wordpress blog / $20 request thread... It was completely thoughtless. And insulting tbh... But that's the chance that designers who post designs on TAZ take.

    For me personally - I do design as a hobby mainly. Sure - it can suppliment your income - especially when finding clients who ask for a logo only as a primary request - but that request blossoms into the creation of the logo, the main website design (WP or other script), with design of complemtary forum theme... There's money to made especially if you're diligent with the "get the money" mentality. One of my most loyal clients found me on TAZ several years ago. I've been doing work for his forums and various website adventures for years now. It's been a lucrative opportunity that I'm proud to have found. Or rather, should I be proud that it found me?? LOL

    Many many many times I've become frustrated with the TAZ design request section. Mainly when you work your ass off on a concept and not even be given the audacity of a 'thank you for your time' .... But that's just the way TAZ's design section rules apply. And personally - I can understand the complaint - I mean ... I've offered designs that 'professional' designs would charge $1000s of dollars at the price of $100 or less. Reason: I recall a time when I was down and out and broke financially. I couldn't afford to hire a 'professional' design - so I decided to create my own look for my own forum - just the way I want it; It would simply require my time and dedication, as opposed to having to invest with money I don't have. So .... Giving back to the TAZ community is one reason why I don't personally mind taking the time to complete a request.

    The OP's replies at:
    It certainly wasn't the kindest or best of form type of reply... In fact - It was initially discouraging - because the OP didn't ask for any particular revision from the designs posted in the thread.... Only to be told a day later that someone submitted via "PM, etc." .... So it seems that someone may have actually violated TAZ's 'unspoken' policy which dictates that members post their design efforts in the actual request thread. So ... Yes. It was disappointing. But that's the risk.

    And honestly - my design efforts for TAZ requests (again) are a means of me saying "thanks!" to a community that has helped me substantially. My design efforts posted at TAZ has actually presented other opportunities with greater payout than the various $10-$20 for a logo type threads. If I were in it for the money - I'd definitely find another line of business LOL - but it does simultaneously offer designers a means of sorta flexing their design muscles as well. So ... I'm not mad about it. Frustrated? A lot of times. Sure- but that's the nature of the beast.

    Welcome to TAZ?...

    J.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Administrator

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    I don't get this bit..?

    Isn't that basically how the world is now, not just TAZ?
     
  20. PoetJC

    PoetJC ⚧ Jacquii: Black Kween of TSSN ⚧

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    Well... It shouldn't be too confusing. What I'm insinuating here is that I agree with the OP that TAZ can be better. THAT'S what he has asserted. My comment ==> Welcome to the world of TAZ. How can TAZ's graphic request section be better? THAT'S what the OP has challenged you guys to answer; That's a concern (perhaps?) for you guys as TAZ staff to address. I'm just in agreement. Agreement and a bit of .... duplicitous complacency if you will. Mainly because I've experienced years of disappointment as someone who very often answers members' request for graphic design on TAZ - only to be denied for the amount of creativity and time I've put into a project. But (again) that's the risk that we take with TAZ's current policy.

    And yes. It's quite often the way the world works - but we all know how twisted and unfair the world has a penchant to be. Right...?
    I just applaud the sentiments that TAZ can be and do better - because I believe it and as 'a frequent flier of TAZ's graphic requests section' share similar sentiments.

    Hope this clears up some of the confusion...

    J.
     
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