- Moderator
- #61
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,450
Well, I suppose I should put this whole story to bed, but it may be a long story which I hope may help other site owners to learn from my experience, although as we know not all sites are the same.
I started Recreational Flying some 18 years ago as many pilots were killing themselves from stupid mistakes and there wasn’t any opportunity for them to learn from each other’s experiences. So, my thought was to try and replicate the flying club clubrooms as an Australia wide clubroom for pilots to learn from each other…Increase their flying skills, learn about proper aircraft maintenance and to be safer in the air. I tried to create an overall single repository of information to help pilots in one single location.
It worked, in fact it worked so well that the site grew faster than I could keep up. Being a VB developer and ICT Project Manager I developed my first site myself using of all things a JET backend. I thought that if I got 30 or so pilots and I was able to save at least 1 life it would be a success. But within a couple of months the growth was too much so for speed I went for a COTS product called MegaBB (if my memory serves me). Within a year or so my site outgrew that as pilots from all around Australia were hearing about my site, at the time called Ultralight.net. I then moved to another more featured COTS solution which for the life of me I can’t recall its name (I think it had 2 words both starting with S) but again my user base was growing so fast and needed “more” than just forums.
At this point there had been an unprecedented 65% drop in fatal recreational aviation accidents with many pilots crediting the reduction in the ability to at any time of the day or night, and from any location, learn from each other’s flying experiences, good and bad.
At this point I needed more from my site, users were demanding more, so it was time to get serious. I moved over to VB v3 and threw all kinds of addons in and the users were lapping it up. I developed myself and paid other developers to create very specific addons, pages, features and functions to build the site up into one hell of an extreme comprehensive single repository of everything to do with recreational aviation. There were all the standard features like forums, gallery etc but also aircraft registration lookups, a weather converter into plain English, an aviation news reader mined the internet on anything to do with recreational aviation etc etc etc.
The site had and was costing me thousands and thousands of dollars so the wife said “NO MORE MONEY”…doh? So, as I was now contracting as a PMO Director I had my own private company which I used to set up an online Pilot Supplies shop on the side of my site. For this I used CS-Cart after trying different forum integrated cart addons which were all big problems. I only put small margins on products to offset the costs of my aviation site now called Recreational Flying. The shop is by no means any kind of commercial interest and the time it takes to administer the shop is completely not worth it as there is no personal gain, but it pays for the hosting costs.
Vbulletin v4 came out so I upgraded to that however some of my extra site features were dropped due them not being ported to VB v4 by their developers. Remember VBClassifieds and VBGallery? The biggest and greatest addon I used in VB was VBCMS and VBDynamics…they were great addons especially Dynamics as I could create many different instances of it for many different features of my site for pilots. Everything started to go downhill from here as Dynamics had too many issues under VB v4 plus the same for many other addons. I got ripped off a lot of money by developers, but I stayed with VB as long as I could. Then the whole VB v5 fiasco, which I didn’t go to, was the end of the line of vb for me. So, at this stage I had a very troublesome site with less features and functions for the users than before.
The question here is if I had just remained default with VB v4 then perhaps I wouldn’t have had so many headaches however if I had not turbo charged my site with so many extras, functions and features for my users would my site had been so successful?
Along came Xenforo. WOW, this promised to be something phenomenal and I was in right at the get go. I migrated over to XF even in BETA stage as it was looking so promising with all the posts and talk of what developers were working on and remember this was even before XF’s formal release.
Before I go any further, I must stress one extremely important consideration. The average age of my userbase is in the low 60s. At this age people often buy a caravan and travel around or they buy a light aircraft and fly around. Many people of this age were not really introduced to technology so using a site can be very hard and confusing. Even though there are buttons saying Create Thread or Create Post I still continually get asked how to create a post. I get many users saying my site doesn’t work as they get timed out after 15mins even though they are just trying to type a three-line post (it is now 30min time out). Every few days I get an email from a registered user simply saying “Your site doesn’t work”…then we have to go through a long process to resolve the issue like their caps are on trying to put their password in. The one thing the spurred me on was the fact that I was continually getting emails from users saying they would have been killed if not for something they had read on my site…my site was saving lives, it was working. These are extremely important considerations in what follows.
The one thing that I found was great with XF was that it was so simple, not just for users but for an Admin to create anything by in many cases simple HTML. The Search function was brilliant so to was the Admin Control Panel, the Template system and most importantly the speed of it. Addons started coming thick and fast and soon some very big addons that I could use. Bob’s great Showcase, Chris’s Media addon and many others. Sure, my XF site started from scratch again with just forums but it wasn’t long before I was building the site back up to its previous glory.
Then, it all started falling apart again. The addons were starting to show their true colours with some very good ones and some very bad ones so you didn’t know who to trust other than by wasting money on the bad ones just to find out. The next thing was the VB/XF Court Case. Everything seem to stop, and I was again left with a troublesome and very much incomplete site. Users were starting to baulk saying when are the Classifieds coming back, when is this or that going to be added to the site. I didn’t know what to do other than sit on my hands and become very frustrated and let down by XF. No coms, no advice, no information…do I spend thousands of dollars on a platform that will not eventuate, do I go back to the problems of VB, do I do this or that. The legal issues went on and on and I became very bitter, so much so that I began to hate even looking at my site. I was going to close it so many times but thinking of the lives it was saving I just couldn’t do it.
Also, at this time the Light Aircraft Governing Body here in Australia tried everything the could to close me down. Many legal actions against me for the site having posts by users the body didn’t like, they didn’t like the fact that I was giving the industry a voice. They even disallowed my membership, which you must legally have to fly a light aircraft, saying I was “Bringing the Industry into disrepute” by allowing pilots a voice by allowing them to post.
The site survived through all the XF/VB legal action, my own legal troubles against me however the site had stagnated. It was getting over 4,000 unique visitors per day, over 600 registered users logging in per day but there was no growth, so I had to do something. With the XF/VB case over I desperately tried to get the site back to its powerful single repository of everything in recreational aviation with addons, features and functionality. The problem of quality yet again rose it ugly head and a lot of money was wasted with no immediate positive outcomes. I kept waiting for XF to grow to the phenomenon that I knew it could grow to but that wasn’t happening. Sure, there was a Resources addon which I believe was driven by XF’s own needs and then XF purchased/took over Chris’s Media addon (which I already had) but it stopped there. XF’s focus, I felt, was purely on a forum solution only solution and developers. I had already felt the wrath of bad developers and had been taken for a ride so many times by them, addon I even paid to be developed were not developed to my specs and were released to the public leaving me without exactly what I paid for but allowed developers to make money off my money.
There were developers like 2 shoes with Classifieds (very buggy), Michael with the shop (very buggy and ripped people off on VB then left, moved to XF and ripped people off and left) and many many others. BUT I MUST SAY THERE ARE ALSO SOME VERY GOOD DEVELOPERS LIKE BOB etc.
At this time my site had been stagnant for some time and there were many users popping up that seemed heel bent on causing trouble. Armed with a hefty amount of keyboard courage and alpha male attitudes they trolled the site antagonising other users driving many people away or simply scared them out of posting. I took a hard-line approach to drive these troublemakers away however it is very much a “Damned if you do, and Damned if you don’t” scenario. My site became divided plus I couldn’t satisfy my userbase with all the features they once had.
Now in comes Facebook. A couple of users from my site started a Facebook Group and with my userbase being of the older generation found Facebook much more convenient as they used Facebook to stay in touch with family and friends anyway. This Facebook Group grew and grew rapidly. I noticed my site’s stats began to drop and saw many of the prolific posters on my site were no longer visiting my site but were posting in the Facebook Group. I have found that users are also divided and that there is still a small amount of those that don’t like Facebook, but they are in the minority.
Now in comes all the hype of XF v2. I am stuck between a rock and a hard post, what do I do. I chose to wait for XF2…wrong move. I waited, and waited, and waited and in the end XF v2 was simply all about developers and very little, very little at all for end users. Gone also was the simplicity of XF v1 where you could do just about anything with just a little knowledge of HTML and CSS. When XF v2 was finally released it seemed all the addon developers ran for the life and only little whoopy do addons were created however there was some little core components that were very nice to have. I felt I now had no choice but to go to XF v2 and wait for those addons that I needed to come back…but again I was wrong. Again I had to wait and wait and wait only to see that the addons were not going to eventuate…what was I to do…My site was dying, the Facebook Group was screaming ahead, I hated my site because I was frustrated and after 15 years of putting everything I had into it to help others had nowhere to go but down. Site stats were now under half of what the site once was, I couldn’t do what I wanted to do due to the complexity of XF v2 unless I embarked on a massive learning curve, and at 60 years of age perhaps I was beyond that now.
Now in comes IPS. Everything indicated that it promised to be a quick saviour with all that it offered and integrated to boot, WOW. So, I purchased the complete package of all IPS had to offer plus many very well built and looking addons like Classifieds, Suppliers, Clubs, Databases and Pages for anything I wanted to create (like my old VBDynamics). I migrated over to IPS as quick as I could (bad move) but I felt pressured into doing something quickly before my site dived any further. I didn’t take the age group of my user base into consideration and their less acceptance of change but also IPS was more complicated to the user simply because of the great number of features and functionality that it has…it has so much.
After a couple of weeks, I found my stats were dropping fast with registered users not even logging in to site…I panicked and quickly went back to XF, wiped the sweat from my brow and started some soul searching. Was I wrong in trying to go back to the success of yesterday by having an all in all comprehensive single repository of everything to do in recreational aviation for my users to help each other? Or, is the time of my site now gone and everything is now Facebook as that Facebook Group was still growing with many users that had over the years before left my site?
Determined that I can still help other pilots, help to keep them safe, help them to learn by other pilot’s experiences and in well and properly maintained aircraft I decided to give IPS another try, after all I think I panicked. I engaged a fantastic IPS developer to help me to change the IPS look and feel to XF as much as possible to minimise the “change” to users. I embarked on a big communication program to the site users, took my time getting IPS right, even having IPS example setup for the users to try and advise. The stupid thing is only a couple of users even looked at IPS site. I created videos on the XF now to the IPS change to help show and educate users on the benefits of IPS and much more. When I felt it was ready, I migrated again across to IPS and this time I was at the end anyway so it was a do or die scenario and I promised myself I would give it 6 months.
I must say here that one big contributing factor in my decision making was that the XF forums had become so extremely toxic with opinionated trolls who seemed to know more about my site by a couple of lines in a post than I did…it is so toxic that even one moderator I wouldn’t pea on him if he was on fire
Anyway, I began with just the same components of XF i.e. Forums, Media (Gallery), Resources (Downloads) etc for a couple of weeks. I then began to turn on some of the other great features and after a few months my site stats were back to what they previously were however still over 50% less than what they were years ago. Over this time users were telling me in private conversations how much they liked the extra features of the site and a poll, even with a small amount of respondents said they preferred IPS to XF, I was also taking note of other stats like users that found the site more complicated. I turned some of the IPS things off like parts of What’s New, the Search function was one area they did complain about as the usage of Search dropped dramatically and many other things. The site still wasn’t growing again though. During the 6 months I thought to expand the site Internationally after all flying a plane is the same in every country. I moved servers to the US LA location and up spec’d the server to counteract some of the latency. This failure for two reasons, one that my site was predominately Australian based users (85%) which deterred the international population and two, even though my new server was extremely powerful IPS still suffered to the existing Australian userbase. The interesting thing is my “Off Topic” XF v2 site didn’t suffer that much. Through server stats I found IPS very resource hungry. I tried to get the server optimised by approaching two IPS server gurus however they declined.
After 6 months of IPS use I found many weaknesses in the Admin side of site management which became very frustrating every time you went to do something at the level of my knowledge. Things that I could do so easily in XF I couldn’t do in IPS. I accidentally deleted a whole forum by simply trying to delete all guest posts in that forum (IPS named Guests differently). This was the straw that broke the camels back and at this time BOB had finally released his great Showcase and Articles addons. I then started to look at how I could create what I needed in XF by thinking outside the box.
I found that I could create a “On this day in Aviation” section using Andy’s Calendar addon, I could create a better menu system that could single out components of Resources into separate sections like a Clubs and Schools section (this was a big impact to me which previously couldn’t be done) and create a powerful Classifieds section by using mostly core functions with a little extra development. As a final solution I would also pay to get developed all the extra functionality and features that I need to hopefully get aviators back to having and using a comprehensive repository of all the information they need in a single location so they don’t miss some little thing that may save their life.
So, that’s my story of my site, it has some half a million posts, 11,000 registered users although that would be around 25,000 if I didn’t cull old users over the last 18 years. Some issues that I need to consider:
1. Facebook is toxic to forum sites and will destroy them unless forum software developers realise that a forum site needs to offer more than a Facebook Group by creating so much more functionality for a site’s users, a “whole web site” like IPS offers and not just a “forum” site (note some subjects are ok in just forums but others are not)
2. The toxic environment at XF needs to be fixed. I am not thick skinned, but no one should be subjected to being attacked for having a different opinion than others and no one knows more about a site than the owner of that site, drop the keyboard courage and alpha male attitudes and HELP each other, that’s why it is called a community
3. Addons are evil but in some cases a necessary evil. You can get robbed, you can get crap addons, and you can as in most cases be left high and dry with a damaged site. Greed has to go, and we have to start helping each other because you never know what damage you are doing to a persons site with your addon an in my case it can cost people their lives by not having a good working resource available to them
4. IPS and XF both have some fantastic advantages and it is very very hard to choose between the two so think about if your site is successful what will the users want and what will protect your site from the vulture of Facebook
Sorry for this being so long and I could even add much more to help others, if my story has helped anyone and yes, I have made some mistakes but I have made some good decisions after all I had an incredible site that helped thousands and I wish I could find the answer to get back to that, but thank you for reading it and I wish you and your site great success
This is blog/article worthy, a great insight into the positive and negative aspects of running a forum. Thanks for taking the time to write it, I'm sure it will benefit a lot of members here. I also hope you maintain enough enthusiasm to keep it running for years to come. It sounds like a fantastic repository of knowledge
