Feedback Designs and similar "contests"

Steve

Steve

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So you're wanting compensation for the work you put into entering a contest?

PoetJC said:
Welcome to the world of TAZ.
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I'm just not getting why you're thinking this is a "world of TAZ" thing.
  1. User post a request here
  2. People reply with their graphic submissions
  3. User accepts a person's submission
  4. User doesn't thank anyone else for their time
Basically sounds like every other design contest oriented site around. How can TAZ change this process? I have some ideas (mind you they've been lingering for like 2 years now) but it of course will require some fancy smancy custom coding and all that. So as it stands with TAZ's current implementation using a forum I'm not seeing a whole lot that can be done.
 
PoetJC

PoetJC

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Steve said:
So you're wanting compensation for the work you put into entering a contest?


I'm just not getting why you're thinking this is a "world of TAZ" thing.
  1. User post a request here
  2. People reply with their graphic submissions
  3. User accepts a person's submission
  4. User doesn't thank anyone else for their time
Basically sounds like every other design contest oriented site around. How can TAZ change this process? I have some ideas (mind you they've been lingering for like 2 years now) but it of course will require some fancy smancy custom coding and all that. So as it stands with TAZ's current implementation using a forum I'm not seeing a whole lot that can be done.
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If I had any solution to offer - I'm sure I'd still be on TAZ Staff.
I'm not. And I don't. If I did - I'd offer it pro-bono.

The OP has actually voiced a bit of frustration that I've felt over the years as concerns TAZ graphic requests section. So I'm merely offering my assessment and opinions to his original post concern, as I'm in agreement: TAZ can do better. How? I have some ideas too.... Especially considering the lack of recent graphic requests though - I'm not quite sure that the ideas would have much effect other than to draw new members here in an effort to hire creative talent for off-TAZ type projects.

"The world of TAZ" thing is not meant as a slight - so I hope you're not taking it that way. I mean - I've been on other sites where the rules are much more strenuous and meant to inspire member-on-member contact in hopes of connecting a client with a designer who can complete their specific request. TAZ is like a contest ... unless you go against 'advised' policy. So there is a difference. And I choose to call it the "World of TAZ" .... No insult intended.

As for your list:
#2 was violated in this recent example... Users were requested to post submissions in the actual request thread ... Apparently the 'winner' was selected out of thin air from somewhere else.. Where'd he/she come from? Who knows - who cares???
#3 was *sorta* violated: Where's the graphic submission? Who submitted it? How was the submission made?The selected design as currently seen at **LINK REMOVED** was not posted publically here at TAZ.
#4 requester probably shows up on TAZ a couple years from now without having made a reply to my questions at:
PoetJC said:
If you don't mind me asking - who is the winner and where is this announcement you speak of?
Anyway - thanks for the opportunity. The new logo looks great. Hope you tipped the designer for the augmented tagline :D
Cheers.

J.
Click to expand...

No problem with that. As I've stated - I'm not presenting designs on TAZ for the money mostly ... I'm doing it for love of community. A "thank you" would be sweet. But obviously that doesn't happen for each request. And when it does - it's mostly a canned type of thing meant calm the frustration of the 'contest participants.'

I myself Steve am quite curious about what you've called your smancy fancy coding ideas. How difficult (or easy) will it be to implement them into TAZ on XF 2.x even...? Looking forward and all that jazz....

IDK... I'd kinda like to see some sort of integration/marketplace with the XFRM as a section for members to purchase member-to-member services. Ugh... IDK ... A few ideas that would require quite a bit of extraneous code to accomplish. The way it is now... It's been this way for years. Other members have made a point of complaining and voicing frustration - same as I have; Same as mysiteguy has done with this thread. He has suggested a change ... And I cannot help but to agree that it's certainly time for policy enhancement. What specifically? Eh... I'm not on the TAZ payroll so I won't be bothered except to state my opinion here in this thread LOL. Cheers dude. :tup:

J.
 
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Steve

Steve

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PoetJC said:
How difficult (or easy) will it be to implement them into TAZ on XF 2.x even...
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It would basically be the same type of process you get with 48hrslogo.com - all designers submit graphics to the applicant and only they and the designer can see them, no chance of copying which would solve a good bit of issues.
 
PoetJC

PoetJC

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Steve said:
It would basically be the same type of process you get with 48hrslogo.com - all designers submit graphics to the applicant and only they and the designer can see them, no chance of copying which would solve a good bit of issues.
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This type of functionality addition would be CRAZY for TAZ. Crazy in a good way actually. And has the potential to drive extra traffic to the site in areas which have been practically deserted. WOW! If I could code it - I'd be on it like nobody's business.

Not only allowing private submissions only - but offering a chance for the requester to update his/her request after having seen an idea that he'd like to flourish could be interesting. But only between that original artist and the requester. An "I accept - however Revision requested" sort of thing...

#WOW. That would be amazing. In fact - if I had such functionality at the tip top of my "Install Add-on" list - I'd click install and 'bout ready to open up shop for DesignsForYou247.com or some such LOL

J.
 
we_are_borg

we_are_borg

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The logo of rhodeworkx that is being used is from DP site on page 2. What i do not get /ben said on DP that the request was not posted anywhere else while he made his post here before. Why would you not disclose this information.

It would be interesting if we can alter how graphics request are done.
 
haqzore

haqzore

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mysiteguy said:
Were they from design contests initially? If so, what happened to those who didn't win? Hundreds of dollars to each of them too in future work?
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I AM a fan of any improvements for designers as they provide a critical service to us, but I feel like I'm missing something, cause this is just silly.

Pick literally any other business selling any other product or service.

Does Ford get paid for every Toyota thats sold?
Does a Digital Advertising firm get paid for every contract that goes to a competitor?

I know some companies can still sell their product to another person, but not all, and so too can services be provided to another person. Designers don't start out only being able to make "15 logos then you must quit". Companies/individuals go out of business every day and aren't paid for the R&D, starting capital lost, etc etc.

Think about the innumerable industries where "bids" are submitted (construction, consulting, event promotions, the list goes on). Detailed work estimates listing everything down to the cost off nails used. Do unchosen companies get paid for their unchosen bids and time spent creating them?

I'm not saying the 'issue' doesn't exist, but it's up front & is not a hidden surprise. This feels like putting your hand in a campfire, being pissed it hurt, then expecting all the other campers to get burnt out of principle.

Do we also ask a portion of Xenforo and IPS sales to pay VB for the customers they've taken? After all, VB already spent X hours creating VB5 that theu can't gey back. What about the people who buy from companies other than PixelExit? Should Russ & Steve be compensated for those?
 
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doubt

doubt

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IMO the design services work well here.
Don't you like some offers for the designs? Just ignore them.
 
doubt

doubt

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haqzore said:
I think you missed the point ... Entirely. ;)
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"On the side of the designers, it shows desperation, they'll work for free on the mere chance they'll win the design contest"
Not one is forcing them to join.
 
tokyoice

tokyoice

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Hi guys.

I was going to reply back to the post that PoetJC posted in my original contest, but as the thread is locked, I'm posting my reply here.

I don't want to apologise for something in which I don't personally think I have done something wrong. As the posts on here were a little slow in regards to the design, I decided to post the thread on DP. At-least I replied back and thanked everyone who participated.

Link to a previous contest where PoetJC was picked -> https://theadminzone.com/threads/paid-fan-site-banner-request-30.100868/

But, I would like to apologise if anyone is upset for whatever reason, it was not my intention, clearly.
 
M

mysiteguy

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haqzore said:
I AM a fan of any improvements for designers as they provide a critical service to us, but I feel like I'm missing something, cause this is just silly.

Pick literally any other business selling any other product or service.

Does Ford get paid for every Toyota thats sold?
Click to expand...

No, but they get paid for the Ford's they produce. Designers here in contests do not.

Does a Digital Advertising firm get paid for every contract that goes to a competitor?
Click to expand...
No, but they do not produce spec work.

I know some companies can still sell their product to another person, but not all, and so too can services be provided to another person. Designers don't start out only being able to make "15 logos then you must quit". Companies/individuals go out of business every day and aren't paid for the R&D, starting capital lost, etc etc.
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R&D and starting capital are not spec work.

Think about the innumerable industries where "bids" are submitted (construction, consulting, event promotions, the list goes on). Detailed work estimates listing everything down to the cost off nails used. Do unchosen companies get paid for their unchosen bids and time spent creating them?
Click to expand...

Bids are not the same as spec work.

Do we also ask a portion of Xenforo and IPS sales to pay VB for the customers they've taken? After all, VB already spent X hours creating VB5 that theu can't gey back. What about the people who buy from companies other than PixelExit? Should Russ & Steve be compensated for those?
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Spec work is creative work submitted by a designer to a potential client before an agreement has been made to pay for the work.

Not one of your examples is spec work. Bids, proposals, placing a product on the open competitive market for sale, r&d, startup capital, etc. are not spec work.
 
we_are_borg

we_are_borg

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If its a contest you know their is usually few prices to win. If you do not like that then do not enter the contest. Its really that simple.
 
S

Somniloquent

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I’m a designer. My take on it is that if you’re starting a site as a hobby and aren’t really trying to make money off of it, then there’s no reason to invest in a professional identity package. I think it’s better to source design ideas from your own community, but if you’re just starting out, almost anything will do. Check out logojoy.com or google ‘logo design pack’ for quick ideas.

If your forum is your business and you are serious about making money with it, talk to a professional designer. They will be able to advise you on positioning yourself in your market, will make sure your design stands out amongst your competitors and guide you towards a design that resonates with your target audience. They will also provide the final logo in multiple formats for different uses.

Designers shouldn’t work on spec; it’s a classic rookie mistake that most grow out of as soon as they realize they’re not going to pay off their student loans by ‘winning’ $20 here and there. If you need work for your portfolio, try sites like catchafire.org.

I think TAZ should do a better job of catching contests and making sure that they are prefixed as such. Also, designers should be discouraged – as in, having their posts removed – if they post designs in a thread that is not a contest. Otherwise, it does set up false expectations for both designers and requesters.
 
M

mysiteguy

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we_are_borg said:
If its a contest you know their is usually few prices to win. If you do not like that then do not enter the contest. Its really that simple.
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This is more about the people putting up the "contest", how it ends up treating others, than those participating in said contest. Treat people well and don't make excuses for not treating them well, it's really that simple. For instance, send a tip to those who worked on a logo, submitted it and were rejected.
 
RisingSun

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I work in the marketing creative field with high-paid, professional designers. There are a few of these designers who participate in the online logo development websites where they are selected by clients based on samples of past work. They create 3-5 logos, the client selects one, and the designer makes a few hundred bucks. The client gets excellent work for bargain prices. The designers do it just for a few extra bucks in their spare time. It's a good side gig, like a professional welder who does a little side work in his garage on the weekends.

None of my professional designer friends waste their time with online contests. They consider them insulting and lowering the reputation of the industry. It devalues good design when people take advantage of the time and talents of good designers.

If you freely agree to perform a degrading sex act in exchange for the drugs you're addicted to, your free agreement still doesn't make it right for the dealer to take advantage of you.

Regarding my own participation in the $20 contest -- I did it for the lulz. If the original requestor had asked for revisions, I might have laughed and suggested he pay a real fee for his logo. The fact that he actually got someone to go through several rounds of logo revisions to win $20 is disappointing. I hope the winner lives in a country where $20 goes farther than it does in the U.S. Even so, it seems ridiculously low.

Weirdly enough, if the contest had been "Design a logo for free for our website & win nothing but the chance to gloat" -- I would have been fine with that. In fact, $20 is so close to nothing for the work that that probably explains why I entered it in the first place. I certainly didn't do it for the money.

Historically, there have been contests for architecture proposals where architects from around the world have submitted designs for free. In those cases, there was a big prize to be won in addition to the glory and publicity that came with a win. Kind of like buying a lottery ticket.
 
Morrigan

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A "contest" insinuates rewards. The Olympics are "Contests" and the top 3 of each category are rewarded. Acknowledgement is a type of reward, albeit not the most "lucrative" but it is a type of reward.

I'll be real. I run a site that works primarily on a "Pay it forward" sort of economy. Which means that rarely anyone has money and they repay the community at large by creating things or helping out where they can so a free society can work.

As it stands, I agree with a lot of the design related comments in this thread. I especially agree with the person that said that if you can whip it out in 5 minutes then the 20 bucks is worth it (innuendo not fully intended) however how many designers do any of you know of that can create a start to finish project (logo or otherwise) in less than 5-10 minutes? I mean I'm a designer and if I can imagine a design that jives with what I feel the person wants in that amount of time I'm freaking awesome!

That being said, many people devalue art, designing and coding in general in our fast paced society due to the fact that a majority think they deserve things for nothing or next to nothing. This is the unfortunate part of a consumer based society. However, when it comes to a development/design.etc aspect I always go back to one thing my BF asked me 2 years ago.

"How much is your time worth?"

I was confused by the question at first. I was like "Well its everything to me. It's my life, its my livelihood, its what I get to spend with my kids, its my hobbies. I mean how do you put a value on that?"

He then asked me. "But if you had to put a number on it. If someone asked you: I want to buy an hour of your time to just force you to sit in your chair and do nothing! How much would that be worth to you? How much would you tell that person that hour is worth to you?"

I told him... "A thousand bucks. That's a waste of my time. That's not worth it! I want my time to do what I want."

He then said the most profound thing I had ever heard. "Then... why do you settle for a job you don't enjoy for a wage that is far less than you value your time?"

While I obviously don't think I'm going to become a CEO of a multi-million dollar corporation anytime soon to make that thousand dollars an hour it got me thinking and I think it applies here and that's why I wanted to share it.

While you all think that its fine to disrespect someone that put time and effort into something that you've requested because there is no promise of reward for their time or effort. Consider that you should value someone elses time the same as you value your own. While I don't expect people to start shelling out "a thousand dollars for an hours worth of time" I do think its prudent to think of what your time is worth to you and what you should think its worth to the other person on the other end of the computer. Anyone that takes a moment to stop and help someone in the street because they dropped something gets more respect and admiration that designers and coders do for free or nearly free work. Even charities get more respect than designers do.
 
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