US and EU politics

[we_are_borg]

Post till #14 are split from the GDPR topic.

 

[CarlosX360]

Honestly, it really means nothing. GDPR is the first of many moves by European Union to "attack" U.S. and the world. Recently, European Union just made tariffs on United States (source). I never took the rules seriously at first, and I still don't. I encourage people in U.S. and host servers in U.S. to do the same.

 

[Pete]

You think it's an attack on the US? It's not really... the more I see about it, the more I've become convinced that it's actually a highly cynical ploy bought and paid for by the largest companies involved in it - because what better way to kill off the smaller players and possible upstart rivals than to hit them with bureaucracy and costs that the larger entities can just absorb without too much effort.

As for the EU making tariffs on the US, they were in response to the US hitting the EU with tariffs - one does not just throw trade tariffs at their allies/trade partners without some kind of retaliation. This is one of the many expected and predictable consequences of Make America Great Again. The US has hit several of its partners with tariffs, and there's no way they're not going to put tariffs right back on that.

 

[feldon30]

Recently, European Union just made tariffs on United States (source).

I cannot possibly imagine why the EU would impose tariffs on the US.

 

[CarlosX360]

You think it's an attack on the US? It's not really... the more I see about it, the more I've become convinced that it's actually a highly cynical ploy bought and paid for by the largest companies involved in it - because what better way to kill off the smaller players and possible upstart rivals than to hit them with bureaucracy and costs that the larger entities can just absorb without too much effort.

Yeah, I knew that. The thing is, though, the information that was sold - isn't actual sensitive information. It's just marketing information. Like: "Where are these people from?" Marketers say: United States. "What age range is this group?" Marketer: 18-30. And so on and on. But people freak out on the smallest information being told by media. *sigh and rolleyes* Don't get me started on the media. I think it's an attack on U.S. and the world right now. Down the line, we may even see "civil wars" between countries, and these tariffs are just one hint or clue to that outcome. See, Russia is being blamed for the election meddling, Russia is being blamed for hackings on U.S. servers whether it's FBI, CIA, or corporations. So, right now, EU thinks their information were stolen because it originated from U.S., but U.S. officials ever since before Trump ran for presidency, has been saying it's Russia.

As for the EU making tariffs on the US, they were in response to the US hitting the EU with tariffs - one does not just throw trade tariffs at their allies/trade partners without some kind of retaliation. This is one of the many expected and predictable consequences of Make America Great Again. The US has hit several of its partners with tariffs, and there's no way they're not going to put tariffs right back on that.

Well, it just points to how EU has been behaving as of late. It speaks volumes.

 

[Pete]

Well, it just points to how EU has been behaving as of late. It speaks volumes.

So it's OK for Canada and China to put tariffs on US things but not the EU because we're out to get you? Um...

It's just marketing information

That's also the difference, we have a much stronger aversion to being made into products. We are also way more socialist as a collective of countries, where it isn't just a race to the capitalist bottom.

 

[CarlosX360]

So it's OK for Canada and China to put tariffs on US things but not the EU because we're out to get you? Um...

No, quite the opposite. I was concerned only on EU's behavior alone. EU has been making dumb moves for a while now, GDPR and the tariffs are just escalating what was already a big mess for EU. Right now, EU is acting irresponsibly to the point of acting like a child. They should've read everything up, rather than blaming people - that's how I see this right now. Why the f#^& do I, as the owner of a few gaming sites, gaming forums... be blamed for something some devious corporations has done? 1. I never intend to abuse the information "collected." (I am using quotes here because it's EU's wording.) 2. Information I "collected" aren't sensitive information, it's just where you are from, how long you were there, and whatnot. Just basic Admin stuff.

My head hurts just thinking that EU wants to target little guys like me. It's bull$#!^.

That's also the difference, we have a much stronger aversion to being made into products. We are also way more socialist as a collective of countries, where it isn't just a race to the capitalist bottom.

So, how do you suppose corporations sell to you products without knowing how to find you...? Explain that one for me. How do I sell "Call of Duty: Modern Warfare" in 2018, TARGETING to you European "socialists"?

 

[Pete]

Plenty of companies seem to manage to advertise just fine without having all the targeting and tracking that y'all seem to think is so necessary.

How do you sell CoD? Advertise it on gaming websites. Places where you don't need to target or track people to know that they're already probably the kind of people who might be interested. Don't advertise it on places that don't make sense, e.g. no point advertising it on a website about knitting patterns monthly.

That's not tracking or profiling, that's just using your ad dollars intelligently.

Also, sensitive information is a very interesting thing. Where I'm from, how long I'm there... it's not so hard to profile individuals using that and target adverts pretty precisely based on that. You'd be surprised what these companies collect - and how much data they really have, that they're just letting you use.

 

[feldon30]

There were few tariffs in effect until Donald Trump started rolling them out in all four corners of the world. Now every country has had to introduce tariffs to balance their trade deficit back to what it was before tariffs were introduced. It's a simple mathematical equation. This is not an opinion or a debatable issue. It's a fact.

P.S. It is ineffective to debate those folks who have clearly been fed a regular diet of Fox News, Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. They have been indoctrinated to immediately reject to any piece of information not provided by a card-carrying member of the GOP regardless of provenance.

 

[feldon30]

What you've described as maybe what Facebook was doing 15 years ago. That is not what they have today. They have detailed psychological profiles on nearly everyone that uses the site. They know by your GPS and text message history who you talk to, what you say, where you go, what stores you visit, your sexual preference, if you are a risk taker, whether you are a Democrat Republican independent Etc, they know where you work and what you do with that job. They have your Complete medical history. They know what you say to other people in the privacy of your own home using the microphone feature on the phone.

Using the psychological profiles that they have on you they know which advertisement is going to be clicked by you and they know what information to show you that will be most addictive for you as a user.

Don't take my word for it. Trump's internet campaign manager went on 60 Minutes and explain how it all works. Facebook employees were actually working at the Trump campaign headquarters explaining to them how to make more effective and invasive ads. They were micro-targeting 2 and 3 voters at a time.

None of this is conspiracy theory. None of this is science fiction. Everything I've described has been confirmed.

 

[CarlosX360]

What you've described as maybe what Facebook was doing 15 years ago. That is not what they have today. They have detailed psychological profiles on nearly everyone that uses the site. They know by your GPS and text message history who you talk to, what you say, where you go, what stores you visit, your sexual preference, if you are a risk taker, whether you are a Democrat Republican independent Etc, they know where you work and what you do with that job. They have your Complete medical history. They know what you say to other people in the privacy of your own home using the microphone feature on the phone.

Using the psychological profiles that they have on you they know which advertisement is going to be clicked by you and they know what information to show you that will be most addictive for you as a user.

Don't take my word for it. Trump's internet campaign manager went on 60 Minutes and explain how it all works. Facebook employees were actually working at the Trump campaign headquarters explaining to them how to make more effective and invasive ads. They were micro-targeting 2 and 3 voters at a time.

None of this is conspiracy theory. None of this is science fiction. Everything I've described has been confirmed.

None of what you're saying seems to be devious. At the basic level, that's what Google, Microsoft, and other tech giants are doing. It's called algorithm. Don't like it? Then delete your account. I have no problem with what they're doing. People just don't understand how it works.

Clinton rejected that offer to get help from Facebook, which is basically what Trump is currently getting. It's a smart business move on Trump's part.

 

[mysiteguy]

There were few tariffs in effect until Donald Trump started rolling them out in all four corners of the world. Now every country has had to introduce tariffs to balance their trade deficit back to what it was before tariffs were introduced. It's a simple mathematical equation. This is not an opinion or a debatable issue. It's a fact.

No, it's not "fact".

Before Trump

EU slapping duties and tariffs on Chinese steel (more than 70%)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwor...air-duties-and-tariffs-on-steel/#7be74047ff85

Obama takes action against EU tariffs on US beef
https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-of...16/december/obama-administration-takes-action

EU imposes tariffs on Chinese solar panels
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-501_en.htm

That's just a small sampling of the hundreds of tariffs the EU imposes. Here's some more:
Live animals, animal products, vegetable products, animal/vegetable fats/oils, animal/vegetable waxes, prepared foodstuffs, beverages, spirits, vinegar, tobacco, several minerals, chemical,s rubber, rawhides, leather, furskins, travel goods, handbags, wood, charcoal, cork, straw, wickerwork, wood public, paper, paperboard, textiles, footwear, headgear, umbrellas, walking sticks, riding crops, artificial flowers, stone, plaster, cement, ceramic products, glass, glassware, pearls, precious stones, semi-precious stones, jewellery, base metals, appliances and machinery, sound recorders, televisions, vehicles, aircraft, water vessels, photographic/cinematographic items, clocks, watches, musical instruments, surgical instruments, arms and ammunition, works of art

P.S. It is ineffective to debate those folks who have clearly been fed a regular diet of Fox News, Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. They have been indoctrinated to immediately reject to any piece of information not provided by a card-carrying member of the GOP regardless of provenance.

It's ineffective to assume those who don't agree with you are fed a regular diet of Fox News, Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. Speaking for myself, I watch/listen to none of those.

 

[CarlosX360]

Just so there's clarification. While I do support President Trump, I do not listen to any of the garbage media bull$#!^, in fact, I try to stay far, far. Far. Far away from TV news as I can possibly can. I do not want to be driven to insanity. The things that are being said on TV boggles my mind in so many levels. As a marketing guy, I really, really am appalled by the misinformation, the overtones, and the overblown crap that's being said on TV. I can't even stand when they cut away from news, and into ads, they tell you what's coming up, then they overblow the information being told to you.

 

[Apple]

I think honestly, you guys are reading way too much into this. The whole EU wants to hate on the USA is so ridiculous. I can't believe Sparda even said that. That's all propaganda nonsense spread by morons on TV. As for the whole EU tariff on American cars, it was in response to Trump putting tariffs on EU steel and aliminium. Is it childish? Yes. But... you can't really blame the EU for retaliating, afterall, US is tariffing the raw materials and expecting to send the finished product back un-tariffed. lol. First I heard of it was when Trump took to Twitter and started mouthing. He is the one at fault in that case. Otherwise I couldn't care less about who tariffed who first.

As an EU citizen, I'm glad that they did something to protect my data from assholes like Facebook who had been selling my information to nefarious people. And before anyone says they didn't... yes, they did. Cambridge Analytica is the one we know about.

As for us small hobby networks, it's not in any way going to shut us down. Yep, it's an inconvienience for forum administrators, but's that's all it is. We don't need to hire people to do anything with our sites since we're not actually using user data in any way that users don't know about. Just update the ToS to comply and make sure that users accept the ToS again and you're done. If you have an email list, probably have to get them to opt in again.

Targetted ads generate very little revenue on smaller sites to begin with. It also depends on your niche. If your members trust you, they'll donate to your running costs. You can use affiliate ads instead of targetted ads, and everytime your users buy something from those links, you get a fixed amount. There are many ways to pay for your hosting on those type of sites.

TL: DR ...Stop being so dramatic. It really isn't that big of a deal in the long run.

 

[pierce]

No, it's not "fact".

Before Trump

EU slapping duties and tariffs on Chinese steel (more than 70%)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwor...air-duties-and-tariffs-on-steel/#7be74047ff85

Obama takes action against EU tariffs on US beef
https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-of...16/december/obama-administration-takes-action

EU imposes tariffs on Chinese solar panels
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-501_en.htm

That's just a small sampling of the hundreds of tariffs the EU imposes. Here's some more:
Live animals, animal products, vegetable products, animal/vegetable fats/oils, animal/vegetable waxes, prepared foodstuffs, beverages, spirits, vinegar, tobacco, several minerals, chemical,s rubber, rawhides, leather, furskins, travel goods, handbags, wood, charcoal, cork, straw, wickerwork, wood public, paper, paperboard, textiles, footwear, headgear, umbrellas, walking sticks, riding crops, artificial flowers, stone, plaster, cement, ceramic products, glass, glassware, pearls, precious stones, semi-precious stones, jewellery, base metals, appliances and machinery, sound recorders, televisions, vehicles, aircraft, water vessels, photographic/cinematographic items, clocks, watches, musical instruments, surgical instruments, arms and ammunition, works of art



It's ineffective to assume those who don't agree with you are fed a regular diet of Fox News, Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. Speaking for myself, I watch/listen to none of those.

China steel: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-china-steel-idUSKBN1900UP

China solar power pannels: https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-06-04/sun-sets-further-on-chinas-solar-subsidies-101262465.html

Eu tarrifs, more like a full ban on beef since 89:

In 1989, the European Union banned the importation of meat that contained artificial beef growth hormones approved for use and administered in the United States. ... In 1997, the WTO Dispute Settlement Body ruled against the EU.

 

[mysiteguy]

China steel: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-china-steel-idUSKBN1900UP

China solar power pannels: https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-06-04/sun-sets-further-on-chinas-solar-subsidies-101262465.html

The EU, like the USA and China, subsidizes many industries. They (like Trump) can't point the finger at China without being a bit hypocritical.

Eu tarrifs, more like a full ban on beef since 89:

The EU imports beef from all over the world including the USA. The USA, unfortunately, when shipping hormone-free beef to the EU have been subject to tariffs. 2009 they dropped the tariffs but only on the first 45,000 tons (a drop in the bucket). Only now with Trump putting pressure on them are the finally considering dropping the tariffs altogether. Personally, I don't care for Trump, and I'm against nations imposing tariffs and subsidies, but at the same time Trump does have a point about the EU's tariff policies not being balanced:

4.1 percent of imports to the EU are tariffed
2.8 percent of imports to the United States are tariffed

Trump's biggest issue with this, in my opinion, is like most of his issues.... not the policy but the execution and the way he acts like a boorish ass, etc. I can understand why some Americans are glad we finally have someone with a backbone. (Again though, Trump is not my choice by any stretch of the imagination and I voted for a 3rd party Libertarian candidate).

 

[CarlosX360]

Carlos, is that you?

I am Sparda!

No, to Facebook you are simply a product. Show me ANY business that does not deal in an actual physical product that generates a profit unless it's from selling information/data. With FB that information/data is that of their users. They have NO product that they sell that is not in some way attached to their member data, as well as selling said data.

Nope. The product is the ability to sell your product to the masses. The whole point of the Social Network is to get money from sponsors. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But is the very same thing that we see in Google's services, and Microsoft's services.

You can freely sell anything on Facebook, and if you want their market, you'll have to pay for it.

Let me put it this way: Microsoft has a network of services, not just one.

Bing - Search Engine, Ad Network, and now Voice algorithm.
Hotmail/Live/Outlook - E-mail, but is actually a Ad Network and it's right there in your face.
Cortana - Uses Bing as part of algorithm.
Windows - OS for PC, but has both Cortana and Bing underneath the ecosystem.
Office 365 - Suite of business solutions, embedded into Hotmail Network.
Xbox - Game Console, has Bing, Cortana, Windows embedded into the console itself.
LinkedIn - Professional Network, but has Office embedded into the service.

This is their money. Not "people" as a product. Facebook has Instagram, Facebook has internet.org, has Oculus, and a few other services you probably don't know about.

 

[CarlosX360]

Advertising is a secondary market for them.... and that secondary market also uses the resources of their primary market.... their user.... which is YOU.

You are free to be closed minded, but that's just not true. Eventually, you'll understand why.

 

[pierce]

The EU, like the USA and China, subsidizes many industries. They (like Trump) can't point the finger at China without being a bit hypocritical.



The EU imports beef from all over the world including the USA. The USA, unfortunately, when shipping hormone-free beef to the EU have been subject to tariffs. 2009 they dropped the tariffs but only on the first 45,000 tons (a drop in the bucket). Only now with Trump putting pressure on them are the finally considering dropping the tariffs altogether. Personally, I don't care for Trump, and I'm against nations imposing tariffs and subsidies, but at the same time Trump does have a point about the EU's tariff policies not being balanced:

4.1 percent of imports to the EU are tariffed
2.8 percent of imports to the United States are tariffed

Trump's biggest issue with this, in my opinion, is like most of his issues.... not the policy but the execution and the way he acts like a boorish ass, etc. I can understand why some Americans are glad we finally have someone with a backbone. (Again though, Trump is not my choice by any stretch of the imagination and I voted for a 3rd party Libertarian candidate).

Im not blaming anybody or calling anybody a trump supporter. Trump will be gone in 5 years and the general people will still be here.

But this is just a game of international politics. Elected representatives have to be seen to be protecting the beef industry in europe, just as much people want to see "Trump protect america and its jobs and make america great again".

China stopped funding the solar panel industry when the arse fell out of it. But china steel is so cheap its a problem for europe (just as much as India steel is).

 

[Nev_Dull]

Tariffs on their own are neither good nor bad. They are simply a tool used to equalize trade economies. For example: keeping too much cheap, imported products from damaging local production. The only time tariffs become a bad thing is when countries use them as weapons to pressure other countries, either politically or economically. Doing so nearly always ends in a cycle of escalating tariffs that only hurt workers and consumers in all countries concerned. It's a pointless exercise that rarely results in any meaningful change that isn't better met with thoughtful and respectful negotiation.