What could get a moderator and administrator fired on your forum?

[Horizon]

and you didnt think to simply add it to the word censor

I did, but it didn't work properly and the word used was actually two words, so that somehow got round the censor

Interesting. Without actually posting the full word here, are you able to elaborate at all? I'd be keen to know.

Without saying it, think of books and dolls depicting black people that used to be around in the 1970s. My mod would keep saying it, or so she thought, in threads I wouldn't notice, like in a weather thread, so instead of saying the word "goodness" she would say things like, "it's cooler today thank g**lyw*g for that." Bizarre and totally unnecessary. I asked her to stop and promise me she wouldn't do it again and she thought she was being victimised.

I explained to her and posted a link that the UK courts have ruled that the word is racist and illegal. It used to be in widespread use in the UK, it was even on a popular brand of jam, but things move on. My country used to hang under 8 year olds for stealing food 150 years ago, then things improved and you had to be at least 12 before you got the noose... thank goodness the death penalty has gone, like other out of date horrible things.

 

[Paul M]

It used to be in widespread use in the UK, it was even on a popular brand of jam,

I'm going to assume from this you mean Gollywog ?

If so its one word (not two) and is not "illegal" in the UK.

 

[PoetJC]

I've personally never even heard of the term Gollywog. Until now... According to a google search - it says that, "The Golliwog (originally spelled Golliwogg) is the least known of the major anti-black caricatures in the United States." I can definitely see how it would be used by a low-life asshat as a devious & cowardly means of demeaning black people. I would not have allowed it - simply because the forums I've managed generally state something similar to the following:

1. Hateful speech and flaming of Community members will not be tolerated.
2. Harrassment of any kind is neither wanted here, nor is it acceptible. Member-on-member harrassment is subject to immediate banning.
3. The maxim "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." is the type of environment we've created here...

Unnecessarily & intentionally violent, objectionable, pornographic, racist, homophobic and/or hateful speech in anyway is not acceptable. Use common sense.

Shame on the moderator who said that she felt victimized when in fact it's her ridiculous use of such a word -- with penchant towards intentional hate & animus and demeaning of people -- that makes her the person who's attempting to victimize others!

Would I have fired the moderator? Absolutely! Because that type of underhanded BS would not be welcome for any forum I know of - with the exception of StormFront. I'd have said - GIRL BYE! Hit the door you hateful c-word and don't come back.

J.

 

[Ummagumma]

I did, but it didn't work properly and the word used was actually two words, so that somehow got round the censor



Without saying it, think of books and dolls depicting black people that used to be around in the 1970s. My mod would keep saying it, or so she thought, in threads I wouldn't notice, like in a weather thread, so instead of saying the word "goodness" she would say things like, "it's cooler today thank g**lyw*g for that." Bizarre and totally unnecessary. I asked her to stop and promise me she wouldn't do it again and she thought she was being victimised.

I explained to her and posted a link that the UK courts have ruled that the word is racist and illegal. It used to be in widespread use in the UK, it was even on a popular brand of jam, but things move on. My country used to hang under 8 year olds for stealing food 150 years ago, then things improved and you had to be at least 12 before you got the noose... thank goodness the death penalty has gone, like other out of date horrible things.

Ah okay makes sense. Yes am from the UK and remember it well, oddly was only discussing these & the tokens with someone recently.Thanks for sharing, made it all much clearer for me at least.

I'm going to assume from this you mean Gollywog ?

If so its one word (not two) and is not "illegal" in the UK.

Agreed.

 

[Horizon]

I'm going to assume from this you mean G****g ?

If so its one word (not two) and is not "illegal" in the UK.

Yes it is. You can search for the case law yourself on google. Plus, there's a story in The Sun today about some owners of a pub in Thurrock who display these dolls. A complaint has already been made.

This article took two seconds to find, a UK judge ruled that the word is racist. That's his ruling, end of story.

I have two members on my forum who have declared their ethnicity as black or coloured. If they made a complaint about the use of that word on my forum, that could be the end of my forum.

What you do on your forum is your business. My forum will comply with the law.

 

[Ummagumma]

Yes it is. You can search for the case law yourself on google. Plus, there's a story in The Sun today about some owners of a pub in Thurrock who display these dolls. A complaint has already been made.

It's / they are, certainly racist but I am absolutely sure the term is not illegal. Do you have a source for the law stating the illegality of this? Would be good to know for certain.

 

[Horizon]

Shame on the moderator who said that she felt victimized when in fact it's her ridiculous use of such a word -- with penchant towards intentional hate & animus and demeaning of people -- that makes her the person who's attempting to victimize others!

What was upsetting, was, this was not even in a political thread, which can turn nasty for all sorts of reasons, these words were used in general threads, especially one about the weather.

All she had to say was "thank goodness" its cooler weather or such like, instead it was "thank g***lw*g" its cooler. She must've have known exactly what she was doing and I allowed it to go on for too long.

She posted on the forum she originally came from, that I panicked and banned her immediately. She used the word over several months. I deleted it and said nothing to her, when I finally called her up about it, she went into a rant. Not once did she apologise or promise me that it would never happen again. In a sense, she was being totally honest, she couldn't give the assurance I asked for, because she likely had every intention of doing it again. What other choice was I left with? It's my forum, if I tell someone to do abide by the rules, I expect them to do it, especially from a mod...

 

[Horizon]

It's / they are, certainly racist but I am absolutely sure the term is not illegal. Do you have a source for the law stating the illegality of this? Would be good to know for certain.

I edited my post to include a article from the telegraph on this. I don't know if the article is premium or not.

It's illegal.

 

[Horizon]

From the article:

"Discussing the ‘Go****g’ image on Robertson’s jam is “inherently racist” as the term is so offensive, a judge ruled."

"And Lord Justice Floyd agreed that the word 'go****g' was "obviously racist and offensive" if used in the presence of a black person."

Unless someone declares their ethnicity on forums, it cannot be known what their ethnicity is, so as a black person (or persons) maybe on a forum at any time, or may read any post at any time, maybe even some time after the original post was made, the word cannot be used on a UK based forum - period.

 

[Ummagumma]

From the article:

"Discussing the ‘Go****g’ image on Robertson’s jam is “inherently racist” as the term is so offensive, a judge ruled."

"And Lord Justice Floyd agreed that the word 'go****g' was "obviously racist and offensive" if used in the presence of a black person."

Unless someone declares their ethnicity on forums, it cannot be known what their ethnicity is, so as a black person (or persons) maybe on a forum at any time, or may read any post at any time, maybe even some time after the original post was made, the word cannot be used on a UK based forum - period.

I don't wish to be pedantic here, but he states rightly so that it's racist and offensive - but nothing is in the article about it being illegal. I have looked and cannot find anything about it being illegal either.
Racist yes, illegal - no?

 

[Ummagumma]

What was upsetting, was, this was not even in a political thread, which can turn nasty for all sorts of reasons, these words were used in general threads, especially one about the weather.

All she had to say was "thank goodness" its cooler weather or such like, instead it was "thank g***lw*g" its cooler. She must've have known exactly what she was doing and I allowed it to go on for too long.

She posted on the forum she originally came from, that I panicked and banned her immediately. She used the word over several months. I deleted it and said nothing to her, when I finally called her up about it, she went into a rant. Not once did she apologise or promise me that it would never happen again. In a sense, she was being totally honest, she couldn't give the assurance I asked for, because she likely had every intention of doing it again. What other choice was I left with? It's my forum, if I tell someone to do abide by the rules, I expect them to do it, especially from a mod...

Agreed, a mod shouldn't behave like that regardless. Fact is, it is a racist and derogatory term and deemed highly offensive. Why say that in the first instance anyway? She is obviously racist and displaying troll-like behaviour, especially if you'd asked repeatedly to conform with your rules and not say it.

 

[Paul M]

It's illegal.

Sorry, but its not.

If used as an insult, its racist, nothing more.

Its not illegal, in fact I dont think there is such a thing as an "illegal" word in the UK.

 

[Pete]

Firstly, this was a civil case, not a criminal one as far as I can tell, and the actual offence cited was harassment through being racist. Racism isn't inherently illegal.

 

[zappaDPJ]

Its not illegal, in fact I dont think there is such a thing as an "illegal" word in the UK.

As far as I know that's correct. I think in England and Wales no words are illegal but the use of any words could put you in breach of the Public Order Act 1986 if they are used to stir up racial hatred.

The use of that word along with posted images gave me a major headache on one forum I was invited to manage. Like me, most of the members were of an age that had grown up with the word and associated products and saw nothing wrong in it. Trying to get a few hundred grumpy 50+ year old members to see things from a different point of view took literally years.

 

[Horizon]

Apologies to non-UK forum owners, as this is all irrelevant to you, but as I said what another UK forum owner does is their business, but it's clear cut as far as UK law goes.

Here is the actual judgment where the judges cited the criminal laws of race discrimination and harassment:

https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed19826

A UK judge has ruled that the use of that word "in the presence of a black person is illegal." That is now the law. The judge ruled it, that's it. As ethnicity of members can never be known on forums, or when a person of colour will ever read posts, the word cannot be used on forums.

That complaint against the pub owners, as mentioned in The Sun, is a slam dunk, to use an American term. The law has already been decided, and the owners of that pub will be found guilty. There can be no other outcome, as the matter has already been previously decided.The only way this may change is if a higher court gets involved, which in the UK's case is The Supreme Court and currently the European Court (although not for much longer).

 

[Horizon]

As far as I know that's correct. I think in England and Wales no words are illegal but the use of any words could put you in breach of the Public Order Act 1986 if they are used to stir up racial hatred.

No, words are illegal depending on context. There are far more laws than just that public order ones and those on race discrimination take precedence.

Not far from me are certain people in caravans who like to park anywhere they like and up until recently (say about ten years ago) they would regularly get insulted with a certain word beginning with P. As the court has ruled that the word falls into ethnicity rules, that word is illegal in the UK now when used in their presence. You could be convicted of racially aggravated harassment.

As for this specific case, here is the actual judgment on this and the judges cited racial discrimination law within their judgment:

https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed19826

It is clear cut. If the word is said within the presence of a black person, it is illegal. As it can never be known when a black person may visit and read forum posts, the word can never be used on UK forums.

I'm not trying to dictate to other UK forum owners what they do, that is their business, but they should be aware of the law.

As for the complaint against the pub owners as mentioned in that Sun article, it's a slam dunk as the Americans would say. The law has already been decided, unless it were to go to the Supreme Court, those pub owners are in serious trouble.

 

[Horizon]

Firstly, this was a civil case, not a criminal one as far as I can tell, and the actual offence cited was harassment through being racist. Racism isn't inherently illegal.

The case is indeed a civil one, a employment tribunal, but on appeal, the judges are citing criminal law and basing their judgment on that.

Anyway, getting the thread back on topic, my rules on my site say you cannot do anything illegal. I believed my mod was doing something illegal, I asked her to stop which she ignored, so I sacked her. Whether I'm right or wrong, it's done.

 

[PoetJC]

What was upsetting, was, this was not even in a political thread, which can turn nasty for all sorts of reasons, these words were used in general threads, especially one about the weather.

All she had to say was "thank goodness" its cooler weather or such like, instead it was "thank g***lw*g" its cooler. She must've have known exactly what she was doing and I allowed it to go on for too long.

She posted on the forum she originally came from, that I panicked and banned her immediately. She used the word over several months. I deleted it and said nothing to her, when I finally called her up about it, she went into a rant. Not once did she apologise or promise me that it would never happen again. In a sense, she was being totally honest, she couldn't give the assurance I asked for, because she likely had every intention of doing it again. What other choice was I left with? It's my forum, if I tell someone to do abide by the rules, I expect them to do it, especially from a mod...

Bottom line: the moderator was all sorts of wrong for having hurled such demeaning terminology. While I can appreciate a myriad of circumstances in which I would hurl demeaning terms (I cuss like several sailors even on a good day - and I tend to have a pretty decent grasp on the English language LOL - some people say that those who cuss simply cannot speak pleasantly and such - it's a lie.) .... But while I can appreciate different perspectives and things - it seems clear that your moderator was not only abusing her privilege as a moderator - but was intentionally speaking as an official identity/representative of your forum. You -- as the administrator and owner -- had all right to demote her. She deserved it.

And this brings up an interesting experience I once had as a TAZ Moderator. Moderators in general *seem* to have the power of speaking on behalf of 'official' forum policy. I used all sorts of vulgarity with a member of TAZ that had hired me to create some designs for her. When she reneged on her promise to pay me and went all sorts of rogue by reporting me to TAZ Administration - I was booted from the moderation team. At the end of the day - I don't necessarily agree with the action - but I can certainly understand how my vulgar language reflected not so well on the forum as a whole.

Bottom line though: It's obvious you had a racist moderator on your team. It didn't reflect well and you were more than within your rights to dismiss her, especially after having admonished the language. She continued with the demeaning language which gave you no choice. The Owner/Administrator's instruction should be obeyed. If you cannot obey - then you should not be part of a moderation team.

I cannot discuss the illegalities of the issue - other than to say that I've done a wee bit of research into the matter and have not found that her use of such intentionally demeaning language is illegal as defined by a court of law, but was simply deplorable.

J.

 

[Horizon]

But while I can appreciate different perspectives and things - it seems clear that your moderator was not only abusing her privilege as a moderator - but was intentionally speaking as an official identity/representative of your forum. You -- as the administrator and owner -- had all right to demote her. She deserved it.

You hit the nail on the head. As a mod, she is representing me.

When I had the discussion with her, she is not even British... I said if I receive a complaint about her use of the word, it will not be against her, it will be against me. The site is registered under my name, not hers. She wouldn't back down, what else could I do???

 

[PoetJC]

my rules on my site ... I asked her to stop which she ignored, so I sacked her. Whether I'm right or wrong, it's done.

It's not really a matter of right or wrong to be honest. It's about being the boss and dictating policy for your own webspace. If the staff cannot abide by the policy you've set for your own webspace - then they have no business being staff. Period. And to be perfectly honest - she's lucky that you even admonished her and advised her to not post in such a demeaning and racist manner. Some have not had that luxury. But she intentionally continued... In the words of the great American President = you're fired!! And honestly - I cannot think of any reason at all why I'd want a racist piece of **** moderating my webspace. So -- illegal or not -- kudos to you for shutting that down. Welcome to being the boss

J.